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Thread: Gumberoo - Making a new learning language intepreter using FPC

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So IMHO, it was kinda inevitable that computers were to become black boxes.

    Not knowing algorithms and data-structures is more disturbing, but hardware is fast enough that most of the developers can get away with any crappy algorithms throughout most of their programming life, and fall-back on experts for the few cases where that's enough (just like you'll call the car mechanic, the plumber, etc. from time to time).
    Sure, but in now days, many are the ones that learns nothing from experimentation, they just sit and learn a popular language, and then call themself programmers. Programming is an Art and a Science. If you want to become a great programmer, you need to go out of the books and try and fail and try again, in a never ending cycle. Learning the basics of a language, doesn't mean you will know what you realy need to master that language.

    If students didn't get the right challenges, they just be one of many. Many students are exposed to so simple exercises, that not get out any brain juice, its just another boring exercise ruining any potencial programmer. What is needed is something that makes them to think, to analize and in the end to enjoy doing it. I remember when I was teaching data structures, I proposed a quiz where students must build a data structure to accomodate a Rubic Cube. It was the only task for a two hour test. The academic supervisor was so pissed about it, that he asks me to change the quiz for something easier. That was my last time in theaching.

    I believe in the teaching by example metod, with progressive diffilculty. You want better developers, bring them the rights tools and knowledge and make them to think. I like games like The Incredible Machine or SpaceChem, just because they have more that one valid solution and because they push your creativity and thinking limits.

    To think is the key, and being motivated too!

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by pitfiend View Post
    they just sit and learn a popular language, and then call themself programmers.
    The same goes for just about every profession out there.

    Not all of programming is art and science, arguably most of the programming jobs out there have more in common with repetitive factory jobs than with high tech, research and experimentation. This may be regrettable, but it's true, and that's true even in the game industry.

    Just look at any AAA game title: you'll have maybe a handful of devs working on the hard parts of the game engine, on the core AI tech, while you'll have dozens working on scripts for the game levels, the game missions, the support tools for all the game assets and the back-office (not game related, but HR, sales, web servers etc.). Same goes for the artistic side btw, you'll have a few lead artists, and dozens that'll be working from specs with much less creative freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by pitfiend View Post
    It was the only task for a two hour test.
    It's a bit problematic to have a single task IME, depending on previous experience on mood of the students, some can get blocked for various reason (f.i. like having never really manipulated a Rubik's cube in real life).

    Quote Originally Posted by pitfiend View Post
    To think is the key, and being motivated too!
    Indeed, but these days, the demand and jobs related to programming is too high, so there are hordes of people that pick programming as their job like they could have picked any other job, and you can't dismiss them, since they're needed. Never forget that there are many programming jobs which no programmer that considers programming as an art and science would willingly take (you included), but those jobs still need to be done by someone...

    I guess the issue of education is not really about educating the motivated and brilliant ones (those will always find a way, if you let them), but about the masses that don't really care one way or another, and for which their job is just a boring requirement of life (happy the ones that can combine work and passion!).

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    The same goes for just about every profession out there.

    Not all of programming is art and science, arguably most of the programming jobs out there have more in common with repetitive factory jobs than with high tech, research and experimentation. This may be regrettable, but it's true, and that's true even in the game industry.

    Just look at any AAA game title: you'll have maybe a handful of devs working on the hard parts of the game engine, on the core AI tech, while you'll have dozens working on scripts for the game levels, the game missions, the support tools for all the game assets and the back-office (not game related, but HR, sales, web servers etc.). Same goes for the artistic side btw, you'll have a few lead artists, and dozens that'll be working from specs with much less creative freedom.
    Sure, but the project proposed try to bring more fun to teaching kids about programming and to keep their interest. I remember when I was 10 and had my first contact with a computer, the legendary Commodore 64, all the wonders I learn that time made me a wannabe programmer, guess what? now it's my profession and hobby, I enjoy it so much that I can't think of me doing anything else. In the begining I learn everything about basic, then I discovered the inmense power of assembler and a whole new universe of possibilities. Later I joined a scene group here in Peru and we made some game intros, SID players, we even fix some pal games to run on ntsc computers, we also made a magdisk with 6 issues. Nothing of that could be possible without an inquisitive mind and teamwork, something rare in now days. It's amazing when we look back on our old metods and realize that we used to apply stuff like scrum development or task management that today has fancy names, but are fundamentaly the same 30 years ago when we were kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It's a bit problematic to have a single task IME, depending on previous experience on mood of the students, some can get blocked for various reason (f.i. like having never really manipulated a Rubik's cube in real life).
    I was aware of that in the moment. We were tree teachers, and made a common quiz for all our students (it was a hard decision to take, but we agree at last), because we show them similar examples and we knew they were ready for something like that, it was the final test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Indeed, but these days, the demand and jobs related to programming is too high, so there are hordes of people that pick programming as their job like they could have picked any other job, and you can't dismiss them, since they're needed. Never forget that there are many programming jobs which no programmer that considers programming as an art and science would willingly take (you included), but those jobs still need to be done by someone...

    I guess the issue of education is not really about educating the motivated and brilliant ones (those will always find a way, if you let them), but about the masses that don't really care one way or another, and for which their job is just a boring requirement of life (happy the ones that can combine work and passion!).
    I kwow perfectly what you mean, my personal experience starts as a business programmer. It's boring, that's why I made my decision to leave anything business oriented in the past and try something new like game development. In this new enterprise I'm learning again, I wanted to show a game for the competition, but still developing it, it takes me more time than expected but in the end I didn't regret to miss the deadline. Eventually the game will be completed, and will post it here for your enjoyment and comments.

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