How much would you pay for this concept for a "Light" Delphi Edition?

[marcov]

What I miss is an option "This is not realistic at all". If you see that Embacadero has abolished (real) discounts on the Pro product (they only give free goodies in the period just before a new version comes out, but no way you can get it cheaper than upgrade price (*)),
moreover they have stated several time that the feature richness of Turbo Delphi was a mistake.

They are essentially milking the platform for all that it is worth,hoping to sell each older Delphi user a $499 version sooner or later. Just look at the new mobile offerings. Do you see any new users? They are all old Delphians being tempted into dabbling a bit with multiplatform and hoping for mobile quick cash. (or get nagging users of their backs). That's the new business model. Anything cheap will only detract from that. Specially hoping for "no license limitation" is ridiculous.

Essentially the premise is "upgrade one more time, and we tempt you by bundling something that sounds good".

IMHO this is kidding yourself and wishing for the moon. It is essentially begging. And worse, begging for something that will never happen.

(*) the "You can't upgrade from this version" condition is luckily pretty fluid.

Disclosure: yes, I am a FPC member, but also a Delphi customer (for my day job) But that also means I have been a Borland watcher for over 15 years.

[WILL]

"This is not realistic at all"

Is it not?

Lets live in fantasy land, if you would be getting just what I'm asking for, would you feel it's worth it?

[hwnd]

You can ban me also if you want. If it makes you feel better.
If you do this, then please delete all my threads and posts.

I already voted and cant vote anymore. Let it be.

I apologize of course. Honestly. Just that statement that "feature richness of Turbos was mistake" made me mad. Embarc. shouldnt say like this.

[SilverWarior]

You can ban me also if you want. If it makes you feel better.

There is no need to exagerate.
Banning you is not required just becouse you sweared once but we also can't just alow pepole to swear all over the place. If we do we will quickly lose all those members who feel that swearing has no place on the forums.
So please chill out a bit. I know that you might feel a bit more stressed lately due to heat wave most of the Europe is expiriencing but still.

I already voted and cant vote anymore. Let it be.

If you feel that you voted wrong please tell me how you voted and how you would like to vote and I'll change the pool results acordingly so you would feel better OK.

I apologize of course. Honestly. Just that statement that "feature richness of Turbos was mistake" made me mad. Embarc. shouldnt say like this.

I can understand that this made you mad as it make me mad to but that is still not an excuse for your behavior.

[WILL]

You can ban me also if you want. If it makes you feel better.
If you do this, then please delete all my threads and posts.

You seem to miss the point. You broke the rules, don't do it again. Don't break the rules and you are good. I suggest you read them if this concerns you.

[marcov]

Is it not?

Lets live in fantasy land

Then please an option "I wait till Microsoft changes back to Pascal". If you fantasize, don't set your targets too low :-)

To be honest, I fail to see anything constructive in this poll, since it is all water under the bridge. They tried twice first with Turbo, then
with Starter. Both were only available for a while, and had no affordable update paths, making their versioning issues even worse than of the pro/enterprise products.

And versioning (fragmentation of Delphi users over umpteen versions) is one of the worst problems of Delphi.

[SilverWarior]

FastMM on the windows platform aside (are they still using that?) the Delphi compiler should be producing faster code which for certain CPU heavy games is always desirable and with IOS/Android devices it might even be essential in a small number of cases.

Yes Delphi is still using FastMM (striplined version but you can always download full one from FastMM webpage).

As for MacOS, iOS and Android in the future, they are using new compiler (LLVM compatible) with Active Reference Conting. I have seen lots of complaints about ARC implementation in new compiler as it causes significant slowdowns, especially in multithreading applications.
Also some pepole say that there is a need to change lots of code for it to work OK with this new compiler (weak referencing, implementing of new DisposeOf command for destroying objects in some cases, etc.).
Now I stil haven't done any tsting of this new compiler so I can't talk from my expiriences but from what I have read around the web it seems that Embarcadero maybe hasn't thought that through a lot. And what is worse it seems that Embarcadero is not realy prepared to listen to comunity suggestions on this matter (had seen a few flamewars on this matter).

Obviously somebody there thinks their compiler is superiour or it's continual development over a switch to FPC is foolish. So some clean hard facts about why the compiler is better than FPC, performance, stability etc would go a long way to improving the image.

You have to understand that Embarcadero spent several years in developing of their own cross-platform compiler (currently only supports MacOS and iOS, but support for Android and Linux si planned) so it would be folish of them to just throw away all their work so far.
Now I don't belive that at this stage their compiles can even compete with FPC one but in time this might change.

I will settle for nothing less than the total dominance of Object Pascal in the gaming industry with the secondary objective of crushing C++ into the metaphorical dirt from which it rose.

Then I must dissapoint you. You see the Embarcadero isn't only developing Delphi but is also developing C++ Builder so no the C++ won't be crushed into metaphorical dirt.

I would one day like to release games for the PS4 and XBox360*2 (or whatever they're called) in a legal way. For various reasons Sony and Microsoft are unlikely to ever allow FPC compiled submissions. Em. are our only hope of having access to platforms like these in the future and indeed as yet unknown platforms with locked in commercial style development pathways.

I may be wrong on this but I think the main requirement from various platforms like PlayStation XBox and others is automated garbage colection to prevent Memory Leaks to cocuring as the OSes on theese platforms are not so fool prof for running out of memory.
I think this is also the main reason why Embarcadero is developing their own compiler which has such system already built in.

And versioning (fragmentation of Delphi users over umpteen versions) is one of the worst problems of Delphi.

I must agree with you on this.

[Murmandamus]

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that it is so difficult to find developers, and also to get new developers interested in the language. We've standardized on Object Pascal for all of our game dev and tool chain (with exceptions where it is absolutely necessary), but the few programmers I have pursued take one look at the language, available learning documentation (ie, the "learning curve"), and the paltry community support, and just say "thanks, but no thanks".

This is one of the symptoms of the fallowness for which Embarcadero is, in greater part, responsible. The reason they have to charge so much with Delphi is because they sell so few units. Since they do next to nothing to evangelize the language (nor support anyone in doing so), there is very little "new blood" coming in under the banner, and as attrition impacts the community, there are even less upgrade sales, which are their bread and butter.

What the OP community (and the OP game dev community, by extension) really needs is another Turbo Pascal. $49 (or whatever in today's dollars) for a compiler, an IDE, and some useful starter libraries. Add to that a good wiki (which the community could build), and a community forum and management, and I think they'd have little to no difficulty moving product.

They just don't get the concept that they don't have to make money off of everyone else's success. Make a damn good roofing hammer (tool), make it affordable, and don't worry that it enables some roofer to earn a good living. Don't sell golden hammers... sell MORE hammers. Make MORE roofers out of people who might be interested in a career in roofing.

That's why FPC/Lazarus is going to succeed where they have failed, and continue to fail. As the kinks get worked out of the "free" tools, Embarcadero is going to have a more difficult time convincing anyone of their value proposition.

So, maybe we should turn this from a "tilting at windmills" effort, to focusing on what we need to improve FPC/Lazarus for our needs, which actually has a chance of happening, and is something *WE* can have a hand in, even directly, if we so desire.

Note that I am not saying "don't bother".. quite the contrary. If you can get through to Embarcadero, great! However, it doesn't have to be the sole/exclusive effort. There's nothing wrong with pursuing all routes.. and whatever positive results come from any effort are good for all of us.

[WILL]

hwnd: Everyone is allowed to share their personal opinions on PGD, but swearing in public forums is not acceptable.

Read the Rules & Conduct section of the FAQ: http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/faq.php?faq=rules

This is your warning and you have lost reputation points for poor etiquette.

[WILL]

Proper public forum etiquette aside; I think we are starting to get into some pretty wild theories here. All I'm asking is if this product is something you would invest in.

Lets try to leave the other stuff out of it for this thread. I want to avoid this poll becoming yet another "big ball of hairy" like all these other Delphi/EMBT discussion seem to go. I'm not challenging your own varied opinions, but lets try to stick to the topic at hand and focus on the product as specified here, it's self. This is indeed for very constructive purposes and not fodder for the witch burners.

"You there! Put that torch out!"