C/C++ vs Pascal

[thegilb]

Thegilb, thanks for some interesting points! I'd like to discuss some of them.

Sure, I've got a bit of time to kill.

In this context and considering what you said, for what language is your own opinion biased to?

It really depends on the project. Based on the task in hand, I might choose from Actionscript, PHP, Javascript, C/C++, Pascal, Java, Ruby, Python, C#, Assembly (80x86, x64, PPC, ARM), Objective C. Those are all of the most common languages I work with, though more recently I have been learning Erlang, io and Go.

Well, it will be somewhat difficult to actually prove all of these points literally. However, the truth is that this is a very common fallacy, Argumentum ad populum/numerum. Many people knowing it, or using it does not make it the best choice, even for those people themselves.

I agree, but conversely that doesn't necessarily make it a bad choice, if both languages are similarly capable. The language will not itself write good programs for you, it is in the hands of the engineer to write good code.

You have agreed yourself that the performance is gained by choosing data structures and algorithms carefully, which applies to every other language; therefore, I don't understand why you keep discussing C++ performance alone. No comparison was made to "Pascal" performance, you simply acknowledged that compiler optimizations that are present in Pascal compilers are also present in C/C++ compilers.

I'm not defending C++ or Pascal here. Performance alone is not necessarily a good reason for choosing a language. If performance was of paramount importance then we'd all be working in Assembly language. However, since we're not, what's the reason for that? The simple answer is that put simply, a program that takes 6 months to write in Assembly can be written in a week in a high level language such as C or Pascal. Considering the size and complexity of your average console game, you could be looking at development times that run into decades and only written by immortals.

The modern developer will often rely on the compiler to produce optimal code, but no compiler is perfect. Some careful profiling can yield a few fps boost in problem areas, but often the biggest gains are in careful choice of algorithms and data structures. Nearly all programming languages allow developers to make these choices, after all, that's their job. It is up to the engineer to write optimal code, the compiler is just a tool to help.

According to the above, if the pleasure is NOT one of your goals and/or if you are not doing something you enjoy, then what language should you use?

Well, then it's time to consider a career change

[thegilb]

Just wait one of these days in the future there will be some crazy guy whos like me, running their own small C-based community long after the Pascal language has taken over the industry.

You have a cool community here, you guys are going from strength to strength, and it's great to see the enthusiasm on here.

When the day comes that Pascal takes over the world, you guys are well prepared!

[mobilus]

Epic for example choose to use C++ and wxWidgets for UnrealEd, but then for them that fulfilled their goals and offered the path of least resistance.

TS - Tim Sweeney

"-Wow, Pascal.
TS: Yeah, it was a good language. It was more rigorous than C++. When I moved from Pascal to C++ to create Jill of the Jungle, it was a real shock that people would actually be using a programming language that was so bad for large-scale development. To think that operating systems are built in that sort of language was really terrifying.
-So you think Pascal is more ideal to work in than C?
TS: It forced the programmer to be more structured and to avoid low-level hacking as much. It's not the best way to get maximum performance, but I think people tend to write much cleaner code when working in a language like Pascal than in C++. It influences your whole way of thinking about systems when you're writing code in a really structured way like that."
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...im_.php?page=4


As you can see, Pascal as a programming language was never a problem... even for real game developers. You should rather look for tools, for your arguments, but you will fall again - today and tomorrow.

"It really depends on the project. Based on the task in hand, I might choose from Actionscript, PHP, Javascript, C/C++, Pascal, Java, Ruby, Python, C#, Assembly (80x86, x64, PPC, ARM), Objective C. Those are all of the most common languages I work with, though more recently I have been learning Erlang, io and Go."

"You have many slaves, Xerxes, but few warriors"

[Ingemar]

As a little update to this thread, I have thought things over and pretty much decided on the following for my CG course (starting in january):

Instead of offering the labs in C only, I will give them a choice: C or FPC. To me that's a no-brainer choice, but I will just let them decide, and recommend FPC for those who have little experience in working with pointers or who just prefer a language with fewer traps. And if they prefer C, be my guest.

The course is about CG and OpenGL, not about messing with pointers and learning C, and quite a few students don't have sufficient C skills anyway. Maybe I can help a few people and make the course a little bit more fun for me at the same time.

[Lifepower]

By the way, Delphi has won two consecutive Annual Members Choice Awards on Code Project for 2010 and 2011 years (see Programming Languages category).

Instead of offering the labs in C only, I will give them a choice: C or FPC. To me that's a no-brainer choice, but I will just let them decide, and recommend FPC for those who have little experience in working with pointers or who just prefer a language with fewer traps. And if they prefer C, be my guest.

Speaking about scaring the students of the programming languages... Why not teaching something modern like C# and XNA?

By the way, Delphi has some interesting CG stuff on Efg's Lab.

[marcov]

One thing that strikes me though, is that most people here seem to think that pascal is "the" language (ok, it's a pascal forum haha) and also that learning languages is hard. I've experienced that once you know the concepts it's not that hard to learn C/C#/Java/Python/Ruby etc etc.. I'd advice everyone to do so. I see languages as tools and every tool has it's pro's and con's. Knowing a bunch of them makes you a better programmer, because you will see how each language would solve a problem, which allows you to pick the right tool for the right job.

I've learner many languages in my life, and IMHO the languages barely matter. Pascal is an exception because I think its string type is the easiest, yet fast and productive.

For serious use, it is more often the complete picture (language+framework+library+compiler+community) that matters.

It's true that pascal has a lot of features and power, but it's not neccesarily a reason to "not learn" other languages. The biggest advantage of having a "big toolbox" is that you can easily work together with other programmers, and have fun (which is where programming is all about ) , without having to debate about the language to use. There is no "best" language.

This sounds awfully like a recited lesson. Is this really own experience, or something you heard in class? :-)

I've heard it over and over in the last few years, and I think the whole concept that language is the most important bit is overrated.

Sure, extremely simplistic, obfuscated or defective (*) languages are a problem, but once you get to a certain minimal level, other factors are more important than language

(*) vote is still out on C. IMHO it is defective (the main issue is because == is so easily and silently confused with =), but the other factors (compiler availability most notably) is more important

[hwnd]

Old thread but what i really miss in delphi is STL. there are generics in XE but still nothing special.
atm im using stl through DLL. lots of useful stuff in STL and its fast.
Reason why i thinked about switching to C++, many times

[User137]

They are implemented in freepascal (hence usable with Lazarus)
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Generics
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Templates

Oh, but i don't believe it makes code any faster at all. Just might make it easier for programmer.

[hwnd]

what about std.map, std.vector. there is decal but doesnt satisfy me

[Lifepower]

Old thread but what i really miss in delphi is STL. there are generics in XE but still nothing special.
atm im using stl through DLL. lots of useful stuff in STL and its fast.
Reason why i thinked about switching to C++, many times

What's so special about STL?