So whatever happened to the whole PGDCE thing?

[LP]

The project failed because people couldn't agree, it was overly ambitious and ultimately only one person contributed any sizeable amount of code.

No, the project failed because it was doomed since beginning - the article "Write Games Not Engines" that I've linked explains why.

What's out there that is well documented, under active development and isn't reliant on a single developer?

Maybe you could actually state why do you feel that existing engines/frameworks do not suit YOUR needs? That is, name a specific framework/engine name and the problems that you have with it. There are authors of frameworks/engines participating on these forums, myself included, so we'll likely be able to answer for ourselves and address the issues that you may have.

Granted, there are some engines like ZenGL that were officially discontinued (and it's sad as Andrey is a very talented developer, I hope he's alright and going strong), but please, there are plenty more that are recent and active.

This is the hole I was hoping we might, as a community, be able to fill.

I think this is where you are wrong - in fact, I think, there is a market saturation, so there are TOO MANY framework/engines to choose from, it'll be quite hard to find any hole to fill. I can't say for anyone else, but at least in my case, the framework that I've published and have been maintaining since 1999 (for almost 18 years already) is just part of the common code that is shared among my own projects, and it is a part of my business plan (consulting), it wasn't made just for the fun of it, but it came as side-effect (result) of developing other products. In addition to helping anyone else, I actually make good money with it.

[AthenaOfDelphi]

As much of what I'm saying is clearly wrong, educate me.

Assume I'm a beginner (I can code Pascal well, but in terms of graphics APIs I'm a newbie), I want to use OpenGL because I want cross platform (I'm using Delphi and I'm planning on targetting Windows, MacOSX and Android). I have a game idea that is 2D tile/sprite based (run jump platformer with some top down world exploration).

Which engine/framework should I use and why?

The selection criteria are:-

• Must be actively maintained and up to date in terms of API implementations
• Must be maintained by more than one person (I don't want to be waiting for bug fixes, when the only dev needs a break for his/her honeymoon for example)
• Must be well documented (for beginners)
• Must have a good suite of examples (for beginners)

So point me in the right direction.

[laggyluk]

Firemonkey? sad.

[LP]

[*]Must be maintained by more than one person (I don't want to be waiting for bug fixes, when the only dev needs a break for his/her honeymoon for example)

Unless the framework is provided by a large corporation such as Intel or Microsoft (and even in case of those companies, the following could apply), you might be very surprised to find out that a certain portion of an important framework or section, a single person is typically responsible of, and many times is the only fully qualified to do the appropriate maintenance. At least in the companies I've worked in, a senior developer responsible of large portion of specialized code, in the area of 2D/3D graphics, is difficult to find and/or replace (so naturally, it is typically a well paid, important position). And now, with introduction of new, complicated APIs such as Vulkan and Direct3D 12, a senior engineer for such position, that also happens to know Delphi, is even more rare, practically nonexistent. Therefore, I think that the quoted criteria point is unrealistic, sorry.

[SilverWarior]

Firemonkey? sad.

You are suggesting Firemonkey. Seriously? It doesen't ment any criteria that AthenaOfDelphi specified.

• Yes it is actively maintained but the problem is that FMX is not focusing on game development but instead of standard desktop/mobile application development. Also FMX isn't up to date with latest API's. And since we are talking about API's the main problem of FMX is that on windows it uses DirectX and on other platforms OpenGL, meaning that there is no guarantee that applications developed with FMX will handle the same way on all supported platforms.
• While FMX is maintained by multiple developers the problem is that their response time to bug reports is quite slow. Just check Embarcadero Quality Portal for many FMX based bug reports where some of them are even more than a year old.
• As for FMX documentation. I'm afraid to tell you that it is terrible. I mean how can you say that certain documentation is good if checking documentation for some component properties actually shows you documentation similar property of one of the parent components. Or even worse when you get "Embarcadero does not have any additional information on this subject"
• As for examples goes. Those that are available are again not focused on game development but on standard application development.

And main reason why I personally would not recommend FMX for game development to anyone. It is its rather poor performance.
Wanna see how poor performance it has? Create a new FMX project, place 100 panels on the form, compile, run and while running just do some rapid mouse movements across the form and observe the CPU usage.
On my 7 years laptop with 2 GHz AMD Turion X2 CPU and ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650 graphic card having 100 panels on FMX form and doing rapid mouse movements I can cause full usage of one of the cores and FPS drops below 20. Now imagine what FPS drops I would be encountering in actual game where I would have to do a lot of other processing. And before you start saying that this is just because my laptop is worth s*** I should mention that on this laptop I can play Far Cry 3 on medium settings with average of 40 to 50 FPS .

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Granted, I was responsible for a big chunk of my teams product line up at my former employers, and I had little to do with other sections, but we were all capable of picking up the others portions (as demonstrated by the fact I handed over that huge chunk of work - 7 years worth - to another member of the team when I left). People are not irreplaceable, the people who think they are make themselves more replaceable.

I'm talking about the framework/engine as a whole... just like lots of other open source projects out there.

So with all that in mind, sounds like an excuse not to give me a good candidate for an engine I could use as a newbie. But, as I'm feeling generous, if you can't meet that criteria, lets discount it and instead go for a 75% requirements fit.

Any takers?

[SilverWarior]

If you can compromise for meeting 75% percent criteria I think you should check Platform eXtended Library. It supports multiple platforms, multiple API's through multiple providers (DirectX 7, 9, 11, OpenGL, OpenGL ES). It works both with Delphi and FMX. Supports both 2D and 3D rendering. And finally it is open-source project so anybody can contribute.
If you chose to use this one I might be able to help you get started since I have some experience with its predecessor Asphyre Sphinx 3.

Another option that you could chose is Castle game engine or nxPascal (might need a bit work to compile with modern Delphi).

[laggyluk]

You are suggesting Firemonkey. Seriously?

Seriously no but it looks like only one meeting the criteria and performance was not one of them

[LP]

People are not irreplaceable, the people who think they are make themselves more replaceable.

As much as I would like this to be true, in case of Delphi/Pascal jobs, unfortunately this is not the case anymore, especially in very specialized, highly technical areas, so when a person leaves, you have pretty much to rethink some of the priorities. Granted, as long as the project is well designed, written and documented (which is rarely the case), it is easy to just keep maintaining, but that usually doesn't go beyond changing comments, adjusting code formatting or doing some other "esthetic" changes - for an actual development you really have to have the same expertise as the other person and know the project well, where in case of large projects it could be increasingly difficult.

So with all that in mind, sounds like an excuse not to give me a good candidate for an engine I could use as a newbie. But, as I'm feeling generous, if you can't meet that criteria, lets discount it and instead go for a 75% requirements fit.

The problem is that you've actually defined conflicting, self-excluding requirements, so either all frameworks fall into your criterias or none.

If you are a total beginner, then none of the existing Pascal engines would suit you because... in 99% of cases, you'll end up using JavaScript with WebGL instead of Pascal, or one of other attractive options such as C#, Java or Swift, depending on your needs.

If you are aiming at native development and for some crazy reason can't use C++, aiming for Pascal, then it likely you are a mid-aged person or even someone who has already retired, to pursue a favorite language of your youth. In this case, wasting 10 years to master OpenGL is definitely undesired, so you can use any of the engines/frameworks from one of existing lists, that people enjoy making. Most of them are cross-platform and suit all your criterias.

As an alternative, since you mentioned that existing engines/frameworks have deficiencies in your point of view, why not helping to improve them instead? Why not promoting Pascal itself by making events, LAN parties, conferences and so on, writing tutorials for existing frameworks, making new examples, etc.

[AthenaOfDelphi]

As much as I would like this to be true, in case of Delphi/Pascal jobs, unfortunately this is not the case anymore, especially in very specialized, highly technical areas, so when a person leaves, you have pretty much to rethink some of the priorities. Granted, as long as the project is well designed, written and documented (which is rarely the case), it is easy to just keep maintaining, but that usually doesn't go beyond changing comments, adjusting code formatting or doing some other "esthetic" changes - for an actual development you really have to have the same expertise as the other person and know the project well, where in case of large projects it could be increasingly difficult.

I've been in the industry long enough to know the problems caused when a key member of staff leaves and I also know it's part of the reason teams are better than individuals when it comes to large projects. Not to be too morbid, but what would happen to PXL if you ended up dead tomorrow? And it's a sad reflection of the times in which we live, but that's not a threat, it's an honest question... a question I've actually asked several members of my teams over the years.

The problem is that you've actually defined conflicting, self-excluding requirements, so either all frameworks fall into your criterias or none.

I struggle to see how being maintained by a team, well maintained to use the latest compiler/APIs, well documented with good examples are conflicting requirements. So please, enlighten me.

If you are a total beginner, then none of the existing Pascal engines would suit you because... in 99% of cases, you'll end up using JavaScript with WebGL instead of Pascal, or one of other attractive options such as C#, Java or Swift, depending on your needs.

Seems like you've just made my point for me... none of the existing Pascal engines would suit you. Isn't that what I've been trying to say? Isn't that a good reason to consider building one as a community? A community of people with varying degrees of technical capabilities... where the beginners can contribute and guide the experts in terms of what beginners need (because so often, experts forget they were beginners once and loose sight of the things that make it easy for beginners), learn from the experts so that the community benefits as a whole.

If you are aiming at native development and for some crazy reason can't use C++, aiming for Pascal, then it likely you are a mid-aged person or even someone who has already retired, to pursue a favorite language of your youth. In this case, wasting 10 years to master OpenGL is definitely undesired, so you can use any of the engines/frameworks from one of existing lists, that people enjoy making. Most of them are cross-platform and suit all your criterias.

Over the years, I have used numerous languages including C and C++. For some reason which I can't really explain my preference is Pascal. So when I want to write a game, it's logical to use the tool with which I am most familiar and feel able to achieve the most. Pascal it is. If I wanted to write games in C++ I wouldn't be here would I?

As an alternative, since you mentioned that existing engines/frameworks have deficiencies in your point of view, why not helping to improve them instead? Why not promoting Pascal itself by making events, LAN parties, conferences and so on, writing tutorials for existing frameworks, making new examples, etc.

1. I don't consider myself technically competent enough to contribute to existing projects, especially as they lack much in terms of documentation already (a fact I've stated clearly on numerous occasions... I consider myself a beginner who needs some help), the same reason I don't feel confident writing new examples or tutorials
2. My work/life balance has for the last 8 years been somewhat off. So much so that it has cost me a chance to get a maths degree, my ability to write code confidently, my mental and physical health have suffered. And in terms of this community, the fact is, the site is generally on-line and available.... do you think that happens by magic?
3. Conferences and LAN parties require money. Where do you think I'd be able to get the money together to do that based on the fact PGD is free, there is no advertising.
4. Previous community organised events have been, how shall I put this... less than well attended.
5. In essence what you're saying is that promoting Pascal, creating content etc. should be entirely on me? Why?

All I'm trying to do is figure out how to improve things, to breath new life into the community, to make things easier for beginners with good resources, good examples etc. That's it. In reality, I could drop the site tomorrow, simply suspend it's hosting and walk away because it (whether you see it or not) consumes my time and my resources. Either we do something as a community to improve things or we continue to loose people to other languages and tools. I'd like us to do something so other people can have the pleasure that many of use have experienced... the pleasure you get when people are playing your games, games you've developed with your chosen language.... Pascal. What's wrong with that vision?