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Robert Kosek
09-08-2005, 04:26 AM
http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cg...c;f=12;t=000001 (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001)


Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

* OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
* OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
* No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

What can you do?

1. Write to your preferred ISV, hardware developer or OEM and tell them to bring this up with Microsoft (e.g. 3Dlabs, ATI, Intel, Matrox, NVIDIA, HP, Dell)
2. Bring this issue up on other developer and tech-related web sites. If you have a personal blog or podcast, talk about the issue there. Windows Vista might end up being a great product, but not if OpenGL is crippled
3. Post your comments to this message board (please no Microsoft bashing - Just make it clear that Windows needs to stay a great platform for the OpenGL API and offer any suggestions)

Not good at all. Most games use DX on windows, sure, but DX is a total pain to progam with... I've tried. GL is easier, faster and looks almost as good. And besides, MS making it impractical to use another API is like forcefully making a monopoly! No Vista for me, for certain!

{MSX}
09-08-2005, 06:50 AM
And besides, MS making it impractical to use another API is like forcefully making a monopoly!

Umm that's strange, Microsoft never did such things.. kind of :P
For me, i'll keep my Linux and i'll keep programming in opengl.

Traveler
09-08-2005, 08:42 AM
I wonder if such a thing is allowed.
If M$ continues with this approach they'll soon face anti-competitive lawsuits.

WILL
09-08-2005, 08:47 AM
Somehow I forsee Microsoft's Windows Vista going the way of Nintendo's N64.

For those of you that don't know the history, Nintendo forced game developers that wanted to make games for the N64 to make games for a really crummy system that bombed hard upon release. This sort of force your partner's hands planning is what put Nintendo's home console market in the situation it's in now. I can see the same sort of things happening to Windows within the next few decades...

Thats ok though.... I kinda like Linux. ;)

{MSX}
09-08-2005, 12:48 PM
Somehow I forsee Microsoft's Windows Vista going the way of Nintendo's N64.

For those of you that don't know the history, Nintendo forced game developers that wanted to make games for the N64 to make games for a really crummy system that bombed hard upon release. This sort of force your partner's hands planning is what put Nintendo's home console market in the situation it's in now. I can see the same sort of things happening to Windows within the next few decades...


i'll print this and append it on the wall.. we'll see in a few decades if you were right :)
i really hope so btw.

LP
09-08-2005, 01:27 PM
Well, I'm not an OpenGL-lover (I think things can be done in Direct3D as easy as in OpenGL and they *might* even run 'better' 'cuz Direct3D drivers are more frequent to update) but I'm neither optimistic about Windoze Vista too.

I think since both OpenGL and Direct3D APIs provide access to hardware, they do the same thing so if OpenGL runs somehow over Direct3D, it's no big deal (it's portable, so you can always run your app elsewhere). Although it's still a non-sense, since why using a hardware API which doesn't access hardware at all? :evil:

Robert Kosek
09-08-2005, 01:53 PM
I don't really like Linux at this point, can't find a good build that works with my GFX card, and for now all my games and stuff are on Windows. I hope in the future that more developers go cross-platform like UT has been.

Well, I'm not technically aware of the issue, but I do find that 2 "3D" canvasses interfere. By using DX to draw their screen canvas, then GL on top, you're bound to have issues. Face it, why can't 2 different DX apps run simultaneously?

Honestly though, I'm not getting Vista due to it's content reporting "black box". I'd rather have bugs than that, it's a breach of privacy IMO.

In the end, I hope Micro$haft goes belly up. They've "owned" the market for too long, had too little competition (competition is HEALTHY), and have gotten lazy. IF they do save themselves, I bet they'll work with a Linux-esque kernel. ;)

Sly
09-08-2005, 10:54 PM
Face it, why can't 2 different DX apps run simultaneously?
Do you mean simultaneously on current versions of Windows? We do that all the time here at work. We have the PC version of the game running, and a separate application that views models and animations. The artists often have 3DS Max or Maya running when using the model viewer. Two separate applications running simultaneously, both using Direct3D.

Robert Kosek
09-08-2005, 11:32 PM
That's odd, Sly. Whenever I've tried it, the thing totally hangs. Like if the screensaver pops up when UT is minimized (for example), the whole thing just goes apart.

tux
10-08-2005, 09:47 AM
i think there *is* a limit to how many 3d windows you can have open in xp. but that limit is beeing raised to a silly number for vista

Clootie
10-08-2005, 07:05 PM
i think there *is* a limit to how many 3d windows you can have open in xp. but that limit is beeing raised to a silly number for vista
AFAIK there is no limit on number active apps, using Direct3D, in XP. Of course you can have only ONE app requiring exclusive mode at a time.

Windows Vista of the other side has new driver model and part of this model is: specification for new (fully WGF2.0 compatible HW) to allow preemptive multitasking build in HW. This way multiple apps using D3D (including Windows build-in 3D desktop manager) will not constantly fight for HW 3D engine how this happens in WinXP.

BenBE
11-08-2005, 11:24 AM
I kinda know why my next computer will run an emulated Windows only ... And every day I get in touch with such news I'm gonna get more sure about that decision!

Running OpenGL layered above Direct3D is as stupid like pulling a car by motorbike because you're motorbike manufacturer ... Come on MicroDust! You had been releasing better jokes in former times! Your time is up with that decision!

OpenGL is BTW more stable (IMHO) just because of the longer release cycles of drivers. Direc3D is nothing part nor complete solution. You can do your stuff, but hey guys! It's of MicroSoft!

savage
11-08-2005, 01:53 PM
Here's quote from someone playing with the beta of Vista...

My first install of Vista was on a Virtual PC. Nice but my main problem was that it's sluggish and unresponsive. Even if it has a 2.Ghz Hyperthreaded CPU and a full gigabyte of RAM at its disposal. taken from http://codebetter.com/blogs/peter.van.ooijen/default.aspx

tux
11-08-2005, 03:12 PM
i think its a bit unfair to judge the speed of an os running in a virtual machine ;)

WILL
11-08-2005, 05:03 PM
Would this be an appropriate location for a Microsoft Joke Cartoon? :)

<center>http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/files/188/MicrosoftJoke_microsoftcar.jpg
'The Microsoft Car!'</center>

JSoftware
11-08-2005, 06:17 PM
microsoft are going down..

i would never want a bigbrother OS which lacks Opengl support! i have done fine with 2k pro in 3 years and i will continue to do so in a lot of years more

McCLaw
11-08-2005, 06:21 PM
In my opinion, linux (Although a very good OS) does noy have the widespread influence and user base that windows has, and to code only for linux then will be a useless gesture.

The only way we, as game developers, can make money is to cater for the masses (In this case Windows)

It would be a complete contravention of the Open source community's standing if MS decides to do what is suggested in the first post, but the truth is that even if they get sued, they will still implement it.

This is obviously VERY bad news for all of us using OpenGL, and sincerly hope that the above is just a rumour.

Some mass action will be required from our side if the above turns out to be true! :evil:

I just cannot see myself coding for linux and OSx and completely disregarding windows :(

This is a dire day indeed :(

savage
11-08-2005, 08:59 PM
i think its a bit unfair to judge the speed of an os running in a virtual machine ;)

Don't let facts get in the way of a good slanging match.

tux
11-08-2005, 09:52 PM
hehe :D

WILL
11-08-2005, 11:00 PM
Well it's been a while since the computer world has seen a huge swing in technology use, perhaps this might bring a big one?

I can see alot of people, like when Windows 95 first came out, holding back on Vista and sticking with XP for a long while.

It is still possible that the masses may reject a Microsoft product. Vista may bomb and we will still have XP to fall back onto. Even they are not untouchable in this way. They just haven't made much that users don't want. Dispite how poor or buggy it is.

tux
11-08-2005, 11:33 PM
but all / most new off the shelve computers will have vista on :(

WILL
11-08-2005, 11:46 PM
but all / most new off the shelve computers will have vista on :(
You can ask for another OS. ;)

Specis
12-08-2005, 12:23 AM
Crazy how things like this run away with themselfs aint it,

Fullscreen OpenGL stuff will run fine, no DirectX Layering used,

And Windowed OpenGL stuff can either take the performance hit and go via the DirectX layer, or Disable the Directx fancy crap on the windows and just use OpenGL.

So its not as bad as its made out to be. everything will still work.

cairnswm
12-08-2005, 05:57 AM
but all / most new off the shelve computers will have vista on

You can ask for another OS.

Doesn;t matter if I ask for another one when all the common users dont knwo to do this and then cant run my games properly.

JSoftware
12-08-2005, 06:02 AM
Crazy how things like this run away with themselfs aint it,

Fullscreen OpenGL stuff will run fine, no DirectX Layering used,

And Windowed OpenGL stuff can either take the performance hit and go via the DirectX layer, or Disable the Directx fancy crap on the windows and just use OpenGL.

So its not as bad as its made out to be. everything will still work.

but what if the version is fixed on version 1.4? No support of future hardware extensions?

tux
12-08-2005, 09:55 AM
im pretty sure opengl will then be updated fully through drivers

BenBE
12-08-2005, 11:32 AM
i think its a bit unfair to judge the speed of an os running in a virtual machine ;)
I don't think it's unfair. running an OS on a Virtual PC shows depending on its performance, what hardware ressources it really needs and if it is programmed well. I had run a small Linux distribution on a VM (Bochs) and it ran quite fast (even though Bochs is VERY slow on emulation and my PC isn't either. Only thing to admit with this would be that you can't judge the high performance tests by a VM test, but it's normal runtime performance.

And if an emulator is absolutely overstressed with a program its the way the program is written that is wrong, not the emulator.

Bart
12-08-2005, 12:22 PM
I don't like this decision at all but, as McClaw sais, writing only for Linux is a useless gesture.

There are probably going to be Open Source OpenGL addons for Windows Vista that can be shipped with games.