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LP
27-12-2005, 05:19 AM
WILL, the idea you are presenting looks a lot like a "Game Development Lounge". There are a lot of different forums, each one specialized in different things. For instance, musicians usually go to ModPlug.com, because they either use ModPlug Tracker, post their music or simply ask questions to fellow trackers. Although they might, it doesn't mean they will be interested in game development.

If someone has a very specific question about isometric landscapes, math and so on, he will most likely go to gamedev and devmaster, because these are high-traffic forums with a lot of specialization too. For instance, when I had a very specific question to Direct3D behavior, I asked on GameDev, simply because the probability of getting the precise answer is much higher than doing it here (and the question was not related to Pascal in any way).

My point is that each community has its own purpose and specialization. You simply can't just put together music, graphics, programming, design, story writing and level making into a single site and hope it will go all right. You can provide much more quality to the end user of PGD by providing *only* what PGD is all about: Pascal Game Development. Pascal word explicitly tells that PGD is about Programming (not graphics art, not music tracking and not story writing or similar!)

I mean, if I read a book about 3D in OpenGL, I would explicitly look for the information related to working with 3D in OpenGL. You can fill the book with partly relevant topics like "Programming in C++", "Designing better applications", "3D Modelling with Maya" and so on, but by doing that you may find out that not many people will really bother to buy your book. I believe same thing happens here on PGD and you simply close your eyes on it.

I think it will be much better if you simply held a links archive to relevant topics like Game Design (there are many articles about this already and really, they are not specific to programming in Pascal!), but don't overbloat PGD with partly relevant or even non-relevant information.

Look at PGD constructively: how many "useful" discussions occured here on Forums in last few months? I mean, only few sections had any activity and the rest of the stuff is just sitting there like a duck, which probably nobody will even care to explore (like this tracking forum), simply because it takes time.

Just think, how long a regular PGD visitor stays on site? 10 minutes? Half an hour or two hours? And how long it takes to review all the information on this forum?

If you look for something on Google using search string like "Music Tracking" and find "Pascal Game Development" in the list. What are the odds the user will pick that link? Not very high, because of topic relevancy. The name is what it's all about!

Anyway, this thread has gone long into off-topic and I'm partly responsible of it, so I hope you guys don't mind. Also, I regret of posting that stupid joke which was way too "local" not to be understood, which in effect created the reply wave.

WILL
27-12-2005, 07:18 AM
Ok we have gone WAY off topic now, thus the new split topic. ;)


You have some very good points. And some are very good aspects to be looking at. However one thing you must consider is that the 'Pascal Game Development' site was put together to not just be a Programmer's only club. Yes, Pascal is the first word of the title, but the second two were chossen with purpose. We intend on covering ALL aspects of game development, not just programming. But, yes that will be the main focus and the site would be utterly useless without it.

Again, though with only programming, you have no project management and overall a not-too-impressive game on your hands. You need to 'bleed' some into other topics, because that is our scope.

This is the part I agree with you on: Now I'll admit that if you veer too far too much into some topics then you are off-balancing your whole scope and in the process losing your original focus. And in this you have to stick to ones that will help support your main focus to keep the site's content strong.

I fully intend on doing that, and in fact I have recently added some 100% programming items in the PGD Library (pending proof-reading review), which is, I think, the perfect place for all of our side-bar topics along with these non-programming forums.

Also I think that all the project management, industry or other game design related topics have a bit more value that you are letting on. In fact it's the basis and foundation for any game development project you can conceive. Otherwise I could just make it 'Pascal Game Programming' and we'd not try to push the envelope with the language nor would we be trying to grow interest in the use of Pascal-based tools.

And lastly, I don't consider GameDev.net nor DevMaster.com reasons to give up visitors becasue they have more traffic on their sites. Our target is development teams and individuals that want to use Pascal instead of the alternative. :lol: Who knows, if this site proves to be as successful as we are all trying to make it, we might not need to have 'Pascal' in the title anymore. (But not a likely happenning for this site!)

I hope you understand my thinking on this. IF at times I seem to be trying to push really hard in a direction that seems off focus, it's because I know that you sometimes have to push twice as hard to get half the results in anything you do. That is why this site exists and that is why it has done so well. We all pushed extra hard and came up with these results. IF we only did half a job, you'd have not seen a very impressive result.


Also consider that I'm only 1/3 of the management of PGD too. I admit I like to be the innovator, push envelopes and get a little ambitious here and there. But Dom(savage) and the rest do a good job of keeping me centered and give me a reality check when I go too far. I don't think we've gone too far with the music and graphics content and forums, but I certenly will keep your points in mind about the balance of fresh content being pumped into PGD.

WILL
27-12-2005, 07:26 AM
I should also ask you where you think it takes time to read new content? What is the problem with finding relavent or interesting content that is supposed to be posted and put in it's appropreate locations?

I ask so that I can make whatever improvements that I can to help with this specific issue you brought up.

LP
27-12-2005, 05:23 PM
We intend on covering ALL aspects of game development, not just programming.
I'm trying to prove my point that what you are doing is not a very good idea. Perhaps I failed to see that it's useless to challange your intentions. :?

(P.S. FYI, Tracking & MODs is not part of Game Development, although the process implies optional usage of music)


Again, though with only programming, you have no project management and overall a not-too-impressive game on your hands. You need to 'bleed' some into other topics, because that is our scope.
Of course, but it doesn't mean you have to cover all these topics here. See below...


Also I think that all the project management, industry or other game design related topics have a bit more value that you are letting on.
I agree, but again you are missing my point and avoiding talking about "Music Tracking" and "Art" sections at any cost. :) Also, I think your argument is not valid. You could have also used "Learning to work on Windows OS is essential to be developing games on it" or "Team work and leadership is important to succeed in a game project", but the fact that some point is important in a specific context, it doesn't mean that you have to cover it "in-place".


And lastly, I don't consider GameDev.net nor DevMaster.com reasons to give up visitors becasue they have more traffic on their sites.
That's a speculation. My point was that they already cover some of the points that you try to cover here on PGD and I think they are doing better job so far (at least because they have been doing it for many years).



Finally, have you been thinking on how to make PGD community grow? Do you really believe that it will grow if you offer more "Design", "Music" and/or "Project Managment" articles/sections?

The last point, look at it from the perspective of all new-comers, who are starting with Pascal (be it Delphi or Lazarus).

Robert Kosek
27-12-2005, 05:44 PM
I have to agree with Lifepower, Will. PGD is going the wrong direction. You cannot be everything to everyone, you must settle for something specific.

While articles on design, music or art may be handy, my response will always be "Show me the code". You see there's something special about the main lurkers/posters here, and it's that we're PROGRAMMERS. Not artists, not trackers - programmers. While we need both artwork and music, it's less than nothing without the code to use it. If I need artwork, then I go and find it. Same for music.

Tell me how much code there is in a discussion of generic game dynamics. Not much, I'll grant you that, it's mostly logic - but it applies to what we do and learn as game programmers. What does an artist or tracker need to know about game dynamics if they won't program? NOTHING. Same for us and articles on tracking and artwork, it's just a bunch of filler.

If you ask me, all music and artwork forums need to be merged into a "Resources Showcase"/"Resource Request" forum. If we need content, we'll ask for it. And if an artist has free stuff or a decent portfolio to show off and is looking for a project, let 'em post there. But "keep the main thing the main thing"!

This is what is so infuriating about the latest Delphi to me. C++, .NET, all kinds of things I've no intertest in - yet bundled into the package I use ... and wasting power. You're doing the same thing.

We're programmers, and while I might be able to do a fair logo here and there, it's not my thing. Show me the code, not the bitmap.


Just my $0.02 worth...

K4Z
28-12-2005, 03:15 AM
Here are my random thoughts :P:

I've only been a member of PGD for about a year, and in that time I've been involved in two teams through PGD, working on a number of projects. Even though I consider myself a programmer first and an artist second, in both teams I'm mostly the graphic artist.

In most Art websites, a programmer will ask for an artist, and most of the time the project will fall through, or the artist leaves (Myself included).
I like how PGD combines programming with other aspects of game development, all in the one community. Instead of working for a programmer, I've been able to work closely with a programmer.

So, from my view PGD has had somewhat a success in combining the different aspects of game development, (with my favourite programming language as well) :thumbup: :thumbup:.

---

It's when you separate the other parts of game development from the programming, when projects more easily fail.

I think there should be even a little more push for Artists, Trackers, etc (As WILL is trying to accomplish). Of course, PGD should remain mostly about the programming, as it is effectively the glue that holds a project together.


If you ask me, all music and artwork forums need to be merged into a "Resources Showcase"/"Resource Request" forum. If we need content, we'll ask for it.
A lot of websites do this, and I can tell you, it doesn't feel very welcoming. You need to make the Artists/etc feel equal and important within the group, or they will feel like they are doing their job for nothing (Especially so, if it's a non paying job). That's the main reason why I see so many communities fail, they don't combine the parts, they make it out to be 'Us and Them'.

---

Both sides have very valid points, I'm just that little bit more for expanding PGD over all aspects of development. From what I've seen, the PGD staff have done a tremendous job creating this community and have never taken a wrong step, and I think they deserve all our support in what ever they decide to do.

All in all, every website questions it's exact purpose, and PGD has had a few of these types of threads before.

:whistle:

LP
28-12-2005, 04:14 AM
In most Art websites, a programmer will ask for an artist, and most of the time the project will fall through, or the artist leaves (Myself included).
I like how PGD combines programming with other aspects of game development, all in the one community. Instead of working for a programmer, I've been able to work closely with a programmer.
Your point is valid... in different context :). Working closely with a programmer means communicating with the programmer, discussing the work, see how it is being used, talk about it and so on, but... it has nothing to do with PGD!.

You know, you can work closely with a programmer via E-mail too and you can even do it on any forums. For instance, when working with LPChip (he mostly tracks music) we *always* worked closely on most our projects (in fact, we *run* Afterwarp Interactive together!) via MSN Messenger! :o



It's when you separate the other parts of game development from the programming, when projects more easily fail.

Are you suggesting that if PGD removes "Graphics" section, most projects made by PGD members will fail?



All in all, every website questions it's exact purpose, and PGD has had a few of these types of threads before.
Perhaps the best action would be opening a public poll where everyone can vote about it.

K4Z
28-12-2005, 04:54 AM
...means communicating with the programmer, discussing the work, see how it is being used, talk about it and so on, but... it has nothing to do with PGD!.

You know, you can work closely with a programmer via E-mail too and you can even do it on any forums...

Yes I know, I have 500+ seperate gmail convos, and 50+ PMs to prove it. But PGD easily encourages teams to share there progress, and recieve valuable input from the community, a nice place to centralize a (whole) project.
But my point there was that most websites make the members of the Resource\Request sections out as Tools To Be Used When Needed, rather than valuable workers\team members.
No artist is really going to just hang around a programming specific forum doing nothing, waiting just to be used. And not give there 100% because they aren't really part of the team, more the outsider who provides the visuals.



Are you suggesting that if PGD removes "Graphics" section, most projects made by PGD members will fail?
No, I'm saying if you seperate the parts of the development (e.i into multiple websites\communities), the communication becomes hindered, and in turn a lower success rate on a project.



However, this is project forum (bound to specific project) and not a public forum (bound to Pascal Game Development community). Don't you think there is a big difference?
I don't fully understand that, isn't PGD both?

---

All I'm saying is that PGD should keep reconition for all aspects of game development (Ofcource all parts can't have exactly equal share). Programming would have to stay the majority, to keep the balance, but you can't just ignore the other 70% (or so) of development untill it suits you.

:joker:

LP
28-12-2005, 05:12 AM
However, this is project forum (bound to specific project) and not a public forum (bound to Pascal Game Development community). Don't you think there is a big difference?
I don't fully understand that, isn't PGD both?
I edited the post and removed this part (edit: 30 mins before you replied), thinking it's no use to pursue it.

LP
28-12-2005, 05:24 AM
Programming would have to stay the majority, to keep the balance, but you can't just ignore the other 70% (or so) of development untill it suits you.
Suppose what you are saying is okay, why not adding a section to PGD about "Learning Microsoft Office"? Writing a proper documentation is very important in a game development, right?


Did you forget the guys who make a web page for your game? They would feel so lonely... Why not adding "Web Design" to PGD too, so they'll feel comfortable and the project will be "more centralized"?


After several months, nothing is changed... *sigh*

K4Z
28-12-2005, 05:48 AM
Suppose what you are saying is okay, why not adding a section to PGD about "Learning Microsoft Office"? Writing a proper documentation is very important in a game development, right?
That is a good idea, all the little things often get overlooked. I guess it's just assumed that most people know how to do them.




Did you forget the guys who make a web page for your game? They would feel so lonely... Why not adding "Web Design" to PGD too, so they'll feel comfortable and the project will be "more centralized"?


That's a good idea too, but most of the time it's the programmer or artist that has to handle the WebSite.

But the little sections probably won't ever get looked at if we can't atleast fill the more major parts. But I see what you mean, there's a lot more sections that would need to be addressed for a true 'Game Development' website.

Paulius
28-12-2005, 07:38 AM
This has been going on for quite a while and are there any new artists here who are not Pascal programmers? Trying to be Pascal + everything else is just not attractive to neither.
Specialization is quite ok, other forums for specific packages seem to get around the same amount of traffic that PGD has.
The focus should be on what the community really is and the forums should look like someone new could actually get a competent answer or a discussion, if I was an artist I?¢_Td not be too interested in triggering a few generic good job posts from programmers.
Does anyone else except K4Z and cairnswm like this direction?

AthenaOfDelphi
28-12-2005, 01:55 PM
Heres my thoughts on this...

Firstly, I'll stand up and be counted as someone who likes the current approach and I think WILL and co. deserve a big hand for their efforts so far.

A key implication from the objectors to the current format seems to be that all games are developed by teams and as such, not all members of the team will be interested in reading everything here. However, this is NOT the case. I personally am the only techy in our 'team'. Spirit, tells me how she wants the game to work, what features she wants and I make it happen. Yes, I get the complex artwork done by my brother (and one or two of our crew chip in), but the rest of it is all down to me. And to be honest, I'm sure I'm not alone in that kind of setup.

So why does this matter? Well, I have in the past tried to get information from some skill/product specific sources only to greeted with non-helpful sarcasm and in some cases outright hostility. Needless to say, as a result, I personally don't have a lot of faith in that kind of site anymore, especially as an outsider who just needs a little help from time to time. I've also found that when peeps ask questions relating to Pascal elsewhere, they can often be greeted with comments like 'Delphi is a dinosaur, you should be using C++'... hardly helpful.

PGD on the other hand is different. I know I could ask a question here and get a sensible answer or pointers to places that may have the answer. If its specifics I'm after... how do I do x, y and z with OpenGL or how can I use a mod to create mood in my game for example, I know I can post and someone will answer. And perhaps, most importantly, the answers I get will relate to Pascal... not C++ or Java etc. as is the case with so many sites and examples. I'm currently investigating the possibility of creating a graphical cross platform client for a new project... this is likely to involve creating music, sound effects, graphics etc. I don't want to spend hours trawling five or six specific sites to get answers in C++ or Java or whatever... I'd like to post a couple of questions here and get my answers in a language I can use straight away. From that perspective, PGD is excellent.

Some of these posts state that what you want to see is code... well... writing tutorials etc. takes time. I'm working on a couple now, but my own work and my job will always take priority because they bring in the money. If you want to see more code, why not start writing for PGD and help build up the parts you think are lacking?

In terms of how-to's etc, PGD already links to other sites that contain useful information and from what I've seen, doesn't recreate the wheel, except maybe to illustrate points in Pascal. There is also the point that many how-to's are written by experts in a particular field and as such, aren't always easily digestable by non-experts... The IPTables how-to's for example... I'm not a novice at networking, but they blow my mind. But IPTables is relevant to what I do as I use it to provide firewalling and routing for our LAN/game traffic, so a how-to for it written by a programmer for a programmer could be extremely useful, not just to me, but others here, and that is where a site like this can prove invaluable. Information for programmers and development teams by programmers and development teams in a language that is both relevant and that can be understood.

My final thought is that from reading these posts, it seems that the objectors expect staff to justify why we should retain the current format, without actually providing any concrete justification why it should change. Its kind of like site X provides Y so we shouldn't... if we adopted that kind of attitude in other aspects of what we do, we'd all still be playing Pong and Space Invaders, because no one would be pushing the boundaries or trying new things. Before I started reading some of the articles and tutorials on here, I'd never have dreamed of attempting to create a graphical client... now, I'm seriously considering it because I can find information about music, sound, graphics and everything else I could need in one place in a langauge I can understand, and best of all, its backed up by some very knowledgable peeps who give up some of their free time to make PGD what it is.

Stick with it guys because I think you're doing a fantastic job.

Robert Kosek
28-12-2005, 04:57 PM
Some of these posts state that what you want to see is code... well... writing tutorials etc. takes time. I'm working on a couple now, but my own work and my job will always take priority because they bring in the money. If you want to see more code, why not start writing for PGD and help build up the parts you think are lacking? I'll address this from last to first...

Simple, I'm hardly any good at programming. I can get by, sure, but mostly I know very little. And since my code is quite messy and optomized like a sloth to chasing down a cheetah... well, you can guess why I want to see the code. A quick example would be Lifepower trying his best to explain how to center the camera around an object, while I just didn't see it (it took him demonstrating how to use the code/math that it dawned on me).

However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to say is not that graphic artists or trackers are less then programmers or not an important part of the team, but why bother the programmer with a lot of the issues that the others face? Lets face it, "Jack of all trades, master of none." Quite true really. In all my years of hobbiest level work I have done mostly my own artwork, except in the realm of models - because I can't model worth beans. (You can't tell a gas can from a bit of junk in my attempts)

Even if I did have someone to back me up with artwork, I'd probably just fail anyway. I accept that I'm not a particularly good programmer, but I want to improve beyond that. So why slow myself down to learn better art techniques if I really want to code, or vice versa.

What have my posts in the "resources" areas been? Not much, maybe a "good job" or tiny bit of critique if I really spot something, because it's not really my thing.


This has been going on for quite a while and are there any new artists here who are not Pascal programmers? Trying to be Pascal + everything else is just not attractive to neither.
Specialization is quite ok, other forums for specific packages seem to get around the same amount of traffic that PGD has.
The focus should be on what the community really is and the forums should look like someone new could actually get a competent answer or a discussion, if I was an artist I?¢_Td not be too interested in triggering a few generic good job posts from programmers.
Does anyone else except K4Z and cairnswm like this direction?I didn't mean specialize to a package, but to pascal programming or something specific within that. It's hard for me do determine value if I can't tie down exactly what the benefits are to being here.


K4Z, I'm not trying to degrade the value of art or music, not in the slightest. What I'm trying to say is more along the lines of that the majority here are programmers, so we ought to focus on that. Mainly because I doubt we'll encounter any more artists who don't program in pascal (after all, why would they hit PGD unless they did?). Art and music are quite valuable, but even with artists/musicians around it's hard to get. (I have a few years of experience with this prior to attempting game design in pascal)


I'm not trying to come across that I don't appreciate the effort being put into this site, because I most certainly do. It's just that I have little desire, skill or need that is outside the realm of programming, seeing that it is my best trait thus far. So adding other stuff doesn't really affect my "experience" here, but perhaps attracts new faces or perhaps some willing to help out.


My final thought is that from reading these posts, it seems that the objectors expect staff to justify why we should retain the current format, without actually providing any concrete justification why it should change.No, I expect staff to justify the CHANGES. Currently I'm pretty much fine with it all, but Will stated he was going to be trying to attract more artists/musicians and that will dictate changes. I want those changes to be well justified. Technically I'm not requesting changes, or I'd have filed formally, but just stating my opinion in the debate.

marmin
28-12-2005, 05:00 PM
hmm..
gamedev.net art or music forums are really not very active either..
and of course pure pascal language questions, the forum would be desolated in a few weeks (look at the Free Pascal forums).
..

I encourage the need for more subjects, actually.

If you don't like a subject, don't read it ! :D

And what is it that programmers can't do art or music, and vice versa. Art and music is evenly important than programming. For me, making a game is a means to present art and music. Programming is the boring part.

The more subjects the better- but keep it clear ..

Robert Kosek
28-12-2005, 05:08 PM
And what is it that programmers can't do art or music, and vice versa. Art and music is evenly important than programming. For me, making a game is a means to present art and music.I don't play games to see art, hear music or anything like that ... I play for strategy, for a challenge. Artwork and good music are just bonus content I can do without for the most part.


Programming is the boring part. Perhaps, but every bit as important as artwork and music. If not moreso (ASCII RPGs are still around after all).


I won't pretend to know what's best for the site, it's neither my job nor my knowledge. The end decision is up to the staff, of course, but it's just my opinion.

marmin
28-12-2005, 05:22 PM
well, that's your personal opinion. Mine is that art and music is equal, sometimes even more important. But, that is another subject. :roll:

LP
28-12-2005, 07:15 PM
What I was initially trying to say that on PGD we have a problem, which is basically lack of discussions lately. Can't you recall times where there have been no messages for some time? Isn't that enough to be used as justification?

Since every problem has a solution, I was trying to present one (which was reducing junk and increasing relevancy). However, I'm still surprised about lack of objectivity when it comes to discussing PGD's developments.

My only concern was to make PGD better and more crowded with discussions and the fact that I don't agree with WILL, K4Z and other PGD Staff or related people doesn't mean I don't appreciate efforts here on PGD. However, I wasn't quite fond of PGD either when it entered a "dark age", where there was only one discussion in few days, not to mention that latest change didn't attract any more users, but in fact filled PGD with even more "junk".

I was challanged that "Knowing Microsoft Office" is assumed. Then why can't you assume "Knowing Artwork" too? I mean, either way it's bull$hit and that was my point. You can't assume anything and you can't have everything either.

Most people post their opinions about whether they like the changes or not, but I haven't seen many opinions about attracting more visitors/members to PGD.

My own suggestion about attracting more visitors was to increase the relevancy of the topic and decrease the unnecessary bulk. Did anyone bother to read my example about an "3D in OpenGL" book? Or you just want to post the same "defensive" opinion again and again?

LP
28-12-2005, 07:34 PM
Also, I made an interesting test. I asked many people I have contact with this: "What do you understand by a title, Pascal Game Development?"

Most people answered with exactly the same answer: "Developing games in Pascal". Nobody ever mentioned "music tracking" or "game design".

Question: how do you expect music trackers to join PGD, when the revelancy is so low?

K4Z
29-12-2005, 01:17 AM
:clap: Well, AthenaOfDelphi hit the point exactly. :clap:


I have hung out in seperate Pascal and seperate Art forums before, trying to coordinate a team for a project, and it is virtually impossible to work. Not everyone checks emails or message boards everyday (or even once a week). And it oftens takes multiple posting on multiple boards to get a single reply. And having a project spead out over different forums also increases redundant replys from each community, as they are only getting a part of the project discussion in there forum.
Ofcourse, there is a small handfull of people that get lucky, and this works for them.

All I can say is that after finding PGD, I no longer have to search around so many different forums. In my opinion PGD is somewhat working succesfully while most others have failed. I'd hate to this this community revert to another dead pascal/delphi programming forum. :cat:




What I was initially trying to say that on PGD we have a problem, which is basically lack of discussions lately. Can't you recall times where there have been no messages for some time? Isn't that enough to be used as justification?
Since every problem has a solution, I was trying to present one (which was reducing junk and increasing relevancy).
Wouldn't increasing the number of members through Artists, Musicians, etc, help increase discussions?
'Relevancy' is objectionable, it is impossible to have any medium 100% relevent, to 100% of the people.


Did anyone bother to read my example about an "3D in OpenGL" book? Isn't that a prime example on relevancy? People probably dismissed it because they didn't think it was relevant to them. That isn't to say a 3D in OpenGL book is irrelevent to everyone.


...Most people answered with exactly the same answer: "Developing games in Pascal". Nobody ever mentioned "music tracking" or "game design"....
I too asked some people what they thought of the title Pascal Game Development, and no one exactly mentioned Programming. Though some did talk about Game Design.


Question: how do you expect music trackers to join PGD, when the revelancy is so low?
Thats why WILL's been in the Music thread asking for Music Trackers, and asking questions about tracking itself, trying to build relevancy.

I really don't see how having Artists, Musicians, etc will in anyway hinder discussion about programming. If your not interested in art just ignore it, because there's a lot of people in here that do care :wink:.
Even though only 5% of the news that gets posted on the front page is relevent to me, doesn't mean that it's not important to anyone. :think:

LP
29-12-2005, 01:49 AM
Wouldn't increasing the number of members through Artists, Musicians, etc, help increase discussions?

...also through Lawyers, Scientists, Military and Housewives.


I have hung out in seperate Pascal and seperate Art forums before, trying to coordinate a team for a project, and it is virtually impossible to work. Not everyone checks emails or message boards everyday (or even once a week). And it oftens takes multiple posting on multiple boards to get a single reply. And having a project spead out over different forums also increases redundant replys from each community, as they are only getting a part of the project discussion in there forum.
Ofcourse, there is a small handfull of people that get lucky, and this works for them.

All I can say is that after finding PGD, I no longer have to search around so many different forums.

http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/3347/triumph6rx.th.gif (http://img287.imageshack.us/my.php?image=triumph6rx.gif)

K4Z
29-12-2005, 02:07 AM
Okay Dokay. I take it that you have no more rebutle :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

LP
29-12-2005, 02:51 AM
Okay Dokay. I take it that you have no more rebutle :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Perhaps programming is not your favorite part, but it's the only way to explain it... http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/character0148.gif


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begin
repeat
if &#40;PostCount&#40;'Lifepower'&#41; < CrazyPostLimit&#41;or&#40;Trunc&#40;Amount&#40;BS&#41;&#41; < AcceptableLevel&#41; then
begin
Quote&#40;'K4Z'&#41;;
Reply&#40;Argument&#41;;
end else
begin
if &#40;Random&#40;2&#41; = 0&#41; then
begin
Quote&#40;Posts&#91;Random&#40;Length&#40;Posts&#41; + 1&#41;&#93;&#41;;
Reply&#40;Nonsense&#41;;
end else Break;
end;
until &#40;Closed&#40;Thread&#41;&#41;;
end;

Robert Kosek
29-12-2005, 02:58 AM
Bwahahahaha! :lol: Good golly, that's a funny one. :D

[ontopic]

Well, I doubt we'll all agree since we seem loath to give ground for any reason under the sun ... but it doesn't matter. So long as we stay a good community. ;)

Do whatcha want Will, but I'd suggest you code a quicksave/quickload function first. :)

K4Z
29-12-2005, 03:41 AM
Someone finish this sentance:

Combining Development with Programming will kill PGD because...

:think:

LP
29-12-2005, 03:49 AM
Someone finish this sentance:

Combining Develpoment with Programming will kill PGD because...

:think:

Umm, are we still assuming knowledge of proper document writing?

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4123/develpoment3ek.th.gif (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=develpoment3ek.gif)

Robert Kosek
29-12-2005, 03:50 AM
...because it wasn't the arguement. Since you bring it back up.

Artwork and music don't have much to do with the development process unless they're needed. The biggest part of development is planning and execution.

Because you're forgetting one little thing... development isn't design. Adding artwork or music doesn't develop some thing, but it relates to design of that particular object. Thus art and music have little to do with the development of the game, outside the base API coding you ought to be past anyway, but are keys in design.

Get it? :)

EDIT: *snicker*

K4Z
29-12-2005, 04:57 AM
*Sigh*, I used 'Development' instead of writing a paragraph.

Uh Hum, How exactly will having more Artists and Musicians, and every other person that may be involved in the complete development and creation of a game all easily accessible in the one community, destroy PGD?

The only real argument you present is that there is not much disscusion on this site, so you suppose ignoring the other aspects of a game within this site, which in turn would lower traffic.

Graphics and sound are part of "Game-Development". Your developing a game, not developing code. And if your are just developing code, then keep doing that, and let the rest develop complete games.

:roll:
---

Umm, are we still assuming knowledge of proper document writing Not at all, there's no real exact way to write a proper doccument, just like writing code, everyone has there own method and style that they like.

Traveler
29-12-2005, 09:33 AM
PGD lacks discussion. On that we all agree.

Question: will that change if we add music, art or other non pascal related sections? I doubt art- or music diehards will come here unless they are involved in a project. They might if they are looking for a job or if they want to take part in a project. In any case, if someone has questions about music or art, related to pascal gamedevelopment, we have a place to add them. And most likely there is someone with an answer too.

Question: will that change if we dont add music, art or other non pascal related sections?

The fact that we don't have any discussions lately has nothing to do with adding music or art sections. It has everything to do with the lack of projects and active members. Technomage has his Alert Fight project, Delfi has Top Down City, and K4Z is doing graphics for WILL, but thats about it. We get an occasional question from a newcomer, but they die off after one or two replies.

If we can change that, if we again have a few dozen new posts a day, then, a non programming related, music or art section, doesn't really matter that much (to me anyway).

So instead of discussing about whether or not PGD should have a music/art section, lets discuss how we can make PGD alive again.

WILL
29-12-2005, 09:41 AM
Well this has been a fun little adventure hasn't it? :roll:

First off, thank you Athena, I think you so far have put it best.

So let me get this straight? Those that don't like the new format(hmm... I recall this being the direction that I made quite clear when the merger of Delphi Gamer and DGDev was still in the works, or perhaps you mean the changes to the forums of late and newly added content that has been there for months now... perhaps, I'm misunderstanding), your complainning about too much information? Geez, I remember the days when all you had to make games in Pascal as Delphi 3 and a Japanese made DelphiX and anything outside of that was crazy talk. :)

Ok, so what makes you go down BELOW the 'Programming' category of the forums? If you don't care, then why complain? Or is it that you just want more programming related material, but instead decided to complain about something else to vent for no reason?

There is a difference between adding junk and content that can have a direct or indirect valid usage in a game related team production or simple indie project(weither it's yours or not). If you cannot find a use for anything that has been posted in the PGD Library or the articles that have been written, then there is something wrong with you, or you don't have a very creative mind.

You're not supposed to read everything! You're not suposed to like or need everything. This site is not only you, but everyone that is involved in Pascal programming and Game Development. You design a game you develop it.

You're saying that graphics design has no effect on programming? How many polygons will the models in your game have? Who designs those? Awe, my artist's models look crappy, he could have done it like this instead and still would run nice because of a nice low poly count. I'm sure you all get the point, dispite your urge to pick it apart becasuse you just want to complain, becasue you're not winning an argument? (A personal pet peive of mine, people who complain to win with no constructive outcome.)

I've also heard the argument that tracking, music and sound doesn't have any bearing on the development of a game. Well, what is a good sample rate to have your sound effect sample at? What is the best way to construct your FastTracker MOD to contain all your game music loops? How do you want to set these up? If you are using MP3 or OGG what sort of issues will you have with looping or crossfading, what are the best compression methods. Nevermind just having good sound and all the parts of music you need for a good game. Theory, technical knowlage, etc...

Now those are just some examples, but think outside the box, and if you don't want to, here (http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/forum_index.php?c=1)! And don't go to the other categories. If you want more of something ASK! I have had no problems adding content that our visitors want. Though don't start looking for 'How To Use MS Word' or 'How To Make A Webpage' it won't be here.

Lets be practical and not a bunch of smartasses trying to win a highschool bully fight. Be constructive and if you find a problem, give me a posative solution that will work well, otherwise it's just pissing in the wind and a useless waste of effort.

Lastly, as for any changes; I've heard concern about this, so I'll be quite clear for everyone. Any changes on this site will not see a lacking of added programming content. You guys don't get the benefit of seeing me pushing the site's writters to keep running through more programming content. On vasious topics. AI for instance is something I'd like us to find more about. But then not all of you are going to need half of that are you? Some 'back to basics' type of articles I've been trying to encourage too. But by no means are we cutting back anything. Just adding a nice sized left wing for other ORGANIZED content that relates to game planning, design and development (argue this till you're blue in the face, same shit, different pile. Split all the hairs you like, it relates.)

Besides that, I find it very disconcerting that you guys would resort to poo-poo-ing and cheap-shots to try to win with your points. This isn't GameDev.net, we're better than that.

BlueCat
29-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Ok, a lot has been said here and I don't think I can say much that hasn't been said.

I do want to say though that the staff here do listen to what everyone wants and genuinely want to make PGD the best site it can be. If you have any constructive suggestions on how to improve this site please post a new thread in this forum and we'll talk about it, with respect for each others' opinions, as we always have. :)

I think the upcoming contest will put a bit of life back in to the forums as there's nothing better than a new game project to get people posting new threads :P

LP
29-12-2005, 04:44 PM
Will, presenting a suggestion on improving PGD was my idea by increasing relevancy to the title (no, not to 100%!). It's hardly a complaint.


Besides that, I find it very disconcerting that you guys would resort to poo-poo-ing and cheap-shots to try to win with your points. This isn't GameDev.net, we're better than that.
If you are referring to the screenshot I posted and the code after that, then it's too sad you don't appreciate humour.


Humor therapy is generally used to improve quality of life, provide some pain relief, encourage relaxation, and reduce stress.

Source: Humor Therapy (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Humor_Therapy.asp?sitearea=ETO)

In my culture it's said that a single smile can increase your lifespan by at least one day. I wasn't trying to prove any point, since I already repeated myself. You could argue, like K4Z surprisingly did, or could just have a smile and have this discussion finished.

Besides, I was about to suggest that you open a section in articles related to game development humour. Humour is a part of our daily life, including when developing games (and yes, it *can* be related to Developing Games in Pascal, see my code above). I've only seen such section on GameDev.net, but it seems rather outdated.

Robert Kosek
29-12-2005, 05:03 PM
I like the idea about the computer programming humor section, we can always use more laughter in our lives. Too darned serious, what?



You're saying that graphics design has no effect on programming? How many polygons will the models in your game have? Who designs those? Awe, my artist's models look crappy, he could have done it like this instead and still would run nice because of a nice low poly count. I'm sure you all get the point, dispite your urge to pick it apart becasuse you just want to complain, becasue you're not winning an argument? (A personal pet peive of mine, people who complain to win with no constructive outcome.) I wasn't complaining, but explaining. Perhaps I should write an article on the parts of making a game. Because you know what, I'm tired of having to defend my opinion from ya'll when it's just my bloody opinion! And I even have a few good points, if you'd just read what I wrote instead of skimming it.

And I've not been resorting to cheap shots.


Might as well just go back to lurking.

marmin
29-12-2005, 05:39 PM
Ok, so what makes you go down BELOW the 'Programming' category of the forums? If you don't care, then why complain? Or is it that you just want more programming related material, but instead decided to complain about something else to vent for no reason?


Thas is what I was trying to say ... :lol:

savage
29-12-2005, 06:04 PM
Hi all, I've come in a bit late on this discussion, mainly due to some serious laptop issues.

I do hope that nobody goes back to lurking!
I realise the discussion is getting a little heated, but hope that at the end of the day we can all take a step back and learn from each other's opinions/ideas and perspectives.

I cannot speak for WILL directly, but I think we welcome contructive critism and quite a few of the points you have raised will be discussed as we want the site to improve and grow.

Also keep in mind the site is dear to our hearts. WILL has busted a gut putting it together and on occasion both WILL and I are a tad over protective of our baby at times. Like all parents we need to learn to let go a little. So after the competition we will chat about the points raised in this thread.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Traveler
29-12-2005, 07:30 PM
I realise the discuss is getting a little heated
You are not the only one.

WILL, I dont think anyone was making cheap-shots to try to win a point. Robert, as well as Lifepower made fair posts and both did it with the best intensions. In the end we all want what's best for PGD.