New motherboard, CPU and GPU combination - advice needed!!!

[savage]

Hi all,
As mentioned I need some advice on a good motherboard, CPU and GPU combination that will just work when I build the system. I want to just plug my existing IDE drives, monitor and mouse in and get testing the competition entries. Basic requirements are that they must support WinXP as a minimum and it would be a bonus if they work with Mandrake 10 or Suse 10 as well.

I will be buying them next week-end, so please let me know ASAP!!!

[tux]

got a manufacture preference?

[savage]

I like ATI graphics cards and AMD CPUs, not really clued up on motherboards, though I read somewhere that Asus were ok but have no real idea and not really bothered as long as it works.

Btw, does anyone know the difference between a AMD Sempron process and the the other one, also Socket 754 Motherboard and a Socket 935 Motherboard ?

Also is it better to go for AGP slot of PCIExpress?

[tux]

sempron is the budget line of cpu.

754 is not a good move. so will 939 be in a few months with the new socket.

i would recommend an amd64 3000 or better. do you want single or duel core? (duel core is 2 cpu on 1 die)


im not too clued up on the latest ati cards. but i have an x800 standard and that performs nicely (so i would recommend that as a minimum)


also i have this motherboard: http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/products/mainboards_specifications.php?gpid=129

crossfire ready (just get a master card and you have duel graphics)


also you want a pci express

[WILL]

:lol: Dom you're gonna hate me. I prefer Intel CPUs and nVidia GPUs. :lol:

Seriously nVidia generally makes chipsets for gaming mostly with media 2nd, but ATI I find is the other way around. Then again... I may have fallen a tad behind over time, but I still see them that way.

And the Intel thing... well common, it's Intel man! :) They invented the 80x86 series who better to know the architecture and make it stable. AMD, sure they did some nity things and they know their stuff by now. Heck making crappy K-series, Athlon and Athlon XP chips helped them learn lessons, but there is a reason that Intel still leads the market.

Just my thoughts on the hardware. Not gosple, but also may be dated. :D

If you getting a new CPU I'd recommend Intel P4 /w HT 2-3 GHz if not Intel board, VIA very is nice(for both Intel and AMD actually). for GPU... I'm not current, but GeForce is great for gaming... this I know. I can only imagine that they would have nicer support for OpenGL than D3D.

[tux]

intel are possibly at least 1 year behind amd in processor development and ati are the only manufacture i know that releases monthly driver updates for all their cards (going back to the 7x00 series!)

[Robert Kosek]

Dated? Yeah... Hyperthreading actually decreases performance and has security flaws. AMD's Barton core allows 4 threads, instead of 2, and is faster. I've not heard a single security problem with the AMD barton's. Besides, AMD is using slower clockspeeds and still matching performance with Intel ... so who's better? Brute force or finesse? :P

Though I'll admit the Pentium1 233mhz was the most sable CPU ever...

I love AMD and will be using nVidia at my next upgrade. I've had it with ATI thus far.

[JSoftware]

i've had amd as long as i can remember(this doesn't include the x86 processors i had in my unknowingly years :wink: ) however i think that no matter what cpu you buy at this time you will be robbed.. Jesus christ, they're expensive! You better grap down deep in your pockets and buy a dual core amd and be safe for the next 4 years!

Gpu: Get an NVidia gfx processor. They are far ahead of ati at the moment. My next card which will probably go in a few months will be a 7800gt(maybe x if i get the money)(i've a ati 9600pro at the moment which is really getting a bit sloppy..). Feel the power SM3.0 which will not have the startup-implementations of the new ati's.

Mobo: Do not try save money here! This can really get expensive later on. The new Via chipset for amd's would probably do it but i would go with a nVidia chipset as i have very good experiences with those.

Well that was my ramblings. Happy shopping :wink:

[Paulius]

Dated? Yeah... Hyperthreading actually decreases performance and has security flaws.
That?¢_Ts strange, Any proof?
PCI Express has better bandwidth than AGP and has better speed when reading back from the card.
6600GTs seem to have the best price performance ratio at the moment.
No offence WILL, but advice from a person who hasn?¢_Tt upgraded in this millennium looks silly.

[Robert Kosek]

Yup, I got DOCUMENTED proof. Exploit info: http://www.daemonology.net/papers/htt.pdf

Long document short, there's a way to mess with the Cache and hijack admin stuff. Really serious, but I'm no deep core techie so I don't know the true depth of it. But I know it poses serious issues to servers.

Barton Core vs HT (http://www.linuxhardware.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/19/1544249&mode=thread). (Google it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=Hyperthreading+versus+barton+Core&btnG=Search))

Evidently the Barton Core doesn't handle 4 threads as I was told, some guy at a computer store. Grr, I ought to hit him with one of the wiffle bats... (Serves me right for not checking up on that) But the dual core stuff coming out now is good enough. ;) But Hyperthreading DOES (http://www.techspot.com/news/19520-hyperthreading-causes-slowdowns-in-servers.html) slow down servers apparantly.

[tux]

yes, HT hates servers. had to turn it off to help the domain controller at work be more stable.

it also causes problems in one of the games i play

[LP]

If I would upgrade right now, I'd go for Intel motherboard and Intel CPU. My experience with AMD was crappy: back in K6 days, their CPUs were getting messed up really quick (two of my CPUs died).

I've got my first Athlon and it got burned out even before I took the PC out of the store. They replaced it 5 times (including the fans - the last one looked like an air conditioner!), all 5 CPUs got burned out and they even got angry at me, just because I wanted them to show me that PC was working properly. Then I went to Intel line. Never had troubles with it.

After recent lightning strike, my motherboard (along with my flat screen and DSL modem) was burned out, I bought another Intel board and it works like charm. Guess what? When I was buying motherboard, I guy came in with his latest AMD 64-bit CPU being burned out.

From all this, all I can say is that AMD makes low quality processors. Seriously, no matter if they go to 128-bit arquitecture now or super-bandwidth-transfer-feature, but what would you prefer, a 32-bit CPU that will work for many years or state-of-the-art MEGA-bit CPU "from the future" which gets burned out in seconds? I prefer the first.

Just my few cents...

[K4Z]

I'd defiantly recommend AMD, faster performance and much cheaper than Intel CPUs. My god, just the word 'Pentium' adds an extra 100 bucks or 2 :eh:. But do stay away from the really cheap AMD CPU's.

Nvidia video would be the way to go, once again, usually cheaper and (in most cases) better performance than ATI. You really do get what you pay for, so stay in the higher end region, and just ignore all the bells and whistles they try and force onto the card :mrgreen:.
AGP vs PCI doesn't really matter, though most appear to be heading the way of PCI.

Most motherboards are pretty much the same, just get one that matches the CPU, and will support the video.

You really don't have to spend an enormous amount on a PC these days, and cheaper brands can easily match the performance of leading names.

but that's just my 200ths of a dollar :mrgreen:.

[technomage]

I would go with a Nvidia graphics card Dom , I've found that Nvidia support for linux drivers better than ATI, they are more uptodate and work out of the box on most systems.

As an example I have an old GeForce 4, I upgraded to the latest Drivers and I now have a machine that supports opengl 2.0 api, even though some of the api is not supported in hardware by the graphics card the driver can still emulate it. I very much doubt you'd get that kind of service from ATI..but I could be wrong.

As for CPU's / Boards, not sure, my kit is quite old so I'm way out of date on that stuff.

[WILL]

Hmm.. well true my intel(the noun not the company, no pun intended) my be old, but my standards don't change. As far as I've seen Intel has primarily always been more stable with AMD failing poorly of struggling to catch up. But that may have been past. Consider this half oppinion of history half question about current standards. :)

BTW, Intel hasn't stopped developing so much. It just has stopped pushing the GHz ranges and started trying to go low power. Notice all the Centrino ads everywhere? :) Pentium M is what their new thing is. Come to think of it, Intel never was powerhouse. IT was the DEC Alpha. Intel was the one waving the RISC architecture. And then AMD came in later with their 'discount' versions.

Hey, anybody remember Cyrux? Or was it Cyrix? They died out faster than Paul Marten's election campaign. :lol:

Linux support is a good issue to bring up too since Mr. Louis does indeed run it. I agree with nVidia as a good Linux GPU chipset. ATI is more closed about it's hardware and doesn't really play nice with the Linux world.

[czar]

AMD vs Intel and Nvidia vs ATI.

It is all 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

You get what you pay for. Although they say no one ever got fired for ordering Intel :)

Generally you get more bang for you buck with AMD (talking about their proper CPUs not the celeron equivalents). And it is a toss up between ATI and Nvidia I have had very good experience with both manufacturers.

In the past I tried to "future proof" our purchases but found through experience that by the time you wish to upgrade so much had changed that it was better to start a fresh.

Also from experience if you buy the best and most expensive then expect problems. If you buy hardware that has been out for a wee while you tend to get stable equipment.

At the moment my choice would be a 64 bit AMD with decent mobo. And as for a video card either one of the newer ATI cards (x1800 :) or a nvidia 7800). 1 gig ram minimum.

[K4Z]

Hey, anybody remember Cyrux? Or was it Cyrix? They died out faster than Paul Marten's election campaign. :lol:
LMAO, My o'l Cyrix is still chugging on, even after about 10 or so years :mrgreen:.

I guess if you want some serious power go AMD, though if you want complete stability and something that'll last for ever, go P4.

Nvidia's support for Linux is another good point.

[Clootie]

wow! HOLY WAR in PGD forums !!!
Dom, you are the man!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Robert Kosek]

I fried my ATI 9800xt with too high heat, didn't realize it until the card was damaged. But my CPU is untouched. The card damage is ATI's fault, I followed their instructions from tech support, but the warranty stinks. That's why I'm switching to nVidia, since they're now using Lifetime and DOUBLE lifetime warranties.

Games/Heavy Number Crunching = AMD
Workhorse/Utilities = P4

'Nuff said. :P


And it's not that I don't like Pentiums, I just like AMD more.

[LP]

BTW, Intel hasn't stopped developing so much. It just has stopped pushing the GHz ranges and started trying to go low power.
AFAIK, highest Intel frequency is like 3.46 Ghz, while highest AMD frequency is 2.8 Ghz.

By the way, as an interesting experience: I've made a small 3D software engine (for TMDC compo) and apparently, two-year old P4 2.4 Ghz seemed to work faster (mostly SSE/SSE2 instructions) than AMD Athlon 64 3000+.

[tux]

the amd64 3000+ is only 1.8ghz though ;)

[K4Z]

AFAIK, highest Intel frequency is like 3.46 Ghz, while highest AMD frequency is 2.8 Ghz.

Yeah, that's true, but they have temperature control that lowers the clock speed, so they very rarely perform at their actual specified speed. Where as AMD doesn't, hence faster speed and lower life spans :fuzzy:.

My main pc is running a 3ghz P4 dual core, and I'd be lucky if I even get an equivalent of a 2.4ghz out of it, especially on a hot day :whistle:.

[Clootie]

OK, as it's still continues - just mine 2 pennies :)


Yeah, that's true, but they have temperature control that lowers the clock speed, so they very rarely perform at their actual specified speed. Where as AMD doesn't, hence faster speed and lower life spans .
Hmmm, you are VERY wrong: Intel latest CPU's consume around 100-140W, while AMD around 70-80W. Next: all new AMD have Cool'n'Quite technology (more often used in mobile PC) and it's much more effective than Intel similiar P4 tech (at idle AMD consumes around 9W). I recommend to look at XBit-Labs articles about this subject. For example, this page: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-fx60_3.html

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/athlon64-fx60/cons.png

Btw: fastest frequency Intel CPU is 3.7GHz (one of the P4-EE), while AMD is 2.8GHz (FX-57)

If you have not decided about single/dual core CPU - I recommed to buy single core CPU (less power consumption, faster in usual applications). I recommend AMD Athlon64-3000+ or speedier (if you have some spare money to spend). For motherboard you could probably buy something NForce4 based (plain, without SLI, bacause if you ever wanted to activate SLI - you shouldn't have asked these questions at all :D ).

As for video currently sweetspot should be NVIDIA GF-6800GS (slightly less than $200 in US) or ATI X800GTO (if you don't mind that this card doesn't support shaders 3.0). Another (more costly) pair will be NV GF-7800GT or ATI X1800XL.

That's all :roll:

[savage]

Would something like this package ( http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?MBB-N43251 ) be adequate, assuming I get a graphics card like this - http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NOV-6800E?

I shouldn't have any problems getting Windows 2000 working with it should I?

[Traveler]

I guess its all about what you're planning to do with it.
Mine's a pentium 3ghz with 1GB ram and a Gefore 6800GT GFX card. Im a happy man since.
I've yet to see a program (game or otherwise) that doesn't work, or requires lower settings than is required.

And if I may give you a bit of advice, don't look at the highest GHz. If you need to choose between a few extra 100mhz or 500mb ram, take the extra ram.

[savage]

I planned to get 1GB, as the bundle only comes with 512MB.

[Clootie]

I would recommend to add 20 pounds and buy 6800GS instead (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NOV-68GS). It should have 30% more performance and NV42 chip should be pretty overclockable.

[savage]

Hi Clootie and everyone else. It's been a while and I still have not upgraded my MB. In the mean time I've blown the MB so I really need to upgrade now.

So what has changed since January and what MB Graphics card combination should I get. I'm looking to spend around £400.00.

[tux]

what preferences do you have on manufacture? intel or amd, ati or nvidia.

you will most likely need to upgrade ram as well

[savage]

I tend to prefer AMD CPU wise. With GCs, I had a GeForce 3 ti, but that blew up last year. I just want something that works for about 3 years, so not really fussed about graphics cards, it would be nice if it also works under Linux.

My criteria is that I want to be able to play all the latest current games at decent frame rates, and when the news games come out next year I'm hoping the it will cope with those as well.

Yes I want to have about 2 GB or memory.

[savage]

The MB bundles I will pick from are probably ones from this page...
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/bundles.html

[Clootie]

Now I would definetly go and buy "Intel Dual Core 2 Duo 6300 - 1024MB - ATX" and GeForce 7900GS. But looks like this will not fit in 400 pounds.

[tux]

what about this (from ebuyer.com):

AMD with quite a nice processor

111290 Athlon 64 4200 Dual Core 2.2GHz
113976 ASUS M2NPV-MX SKT AM2
091124 Kingston Valueram 2Gb 667MHz DDR2

that comes to £346 including VAT and shipping.

or we could go to intel with an older processor

107617 Intel Pentium D 805 Dual Core 64 bit
114964 MSI 945GZM3-L
091124 Kingston Valueram 2Gb 667MHz DDR2

that comes to £302 including vat and shipping but the motherboard also supports core 2 duo for a future upgrade.


both have onboard graphics cards and depending on what you want to do, i would wait to get a graphics card (or get a cheap one like an x1300 at £40) until the dx10 cards are out.

also bare in mind that the core2 duo processors are quite new (well a few months old) and amd havnt released there new processors yet but its been said they are compatible with the AM2 motherboards

[savage]

I gather the graphics card need to be PCI Express, does it have to be SLI?

[tux]

yes the graphics card will need to be pci express. sli is decided by the motherboard and is only available with nvidia. crossfire is ATI's version but is a bit more complex, you wil lneed whats called a master card and then a normal card

[savage]

When are the Dx10 cards due out?

[tux]

not too sure. vista is released january-ish and that has dx10 so i suspect shortly after that?

dx10 aparently wont be released for xp (due to the new graphics driver model in vista)

[savage]

hmm may just get a cheap graphics card until then. What real advantages are to be gained by sticking 2 Sli Graphics cards in my new MB?

[WILL]

Hmm... I'm currious as to who is going to create software that is DirectX 10 required and when that will start to happen.

I personally am not going to touch Vista. It looks all nice and all, but personally Linux is the way to go for me. Esp. once I hit school hard.

'Till then I'm sticking with XP.

[tanffn]

SLI means that you can buy 2 cards of the same type (being both PCI-X+SLI) and connect them to work together.

An highend GC costs as it is way too much and using too in parallel is nice and all but I don’t think its worth it.
I always buy a new computer every 3-4 years, and every time I do I buy one-two-three generation older then the one that was announced (calculating the speed per $$ ratio)

The spec of my computer is AMD 64 3500+ (notice the +), 1GB ram (2 sticks, CL2.5, take advantage of the hyper-transport), GeForce 6600 (PCI-X) 256MB, MB with NForce 4 bus controller.
It works great with all the games I’ve tried, true that in the options not everything is set to *extreme* :)

[Clootie]

When are the Dx10 cards due out?
This year, but they will be pricy! 8)

[savage]

OK I think I might get the... GF 7600 ( http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NOV-76GT ) for now and the 1GB AM2 Mother board bundle.

Will that be adequate for until the Dx10 cards come out?

[tux]

Hmm... I'm currious as to who is going to create software that is DirectX 10 required and when that will start to happen.

crytek (the people who made farcry) will be releasing crysis with dx10 although it will have dx9 support.

flight simulator 10 will have an upgrade to add dx10 goodies

halo 3 will be dx10 only

[Clootie]

Confirmed DX10/SM4.0 Games:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=77741

[tanffn]

wow those screen-shots look great! ..can’t really be compared to what my GC can do :(

[savage]

Maybe my eyes aren't good enough, but I though they looked very similar to the SM 3.0 screen shots. They do look good, but I'm not sure if they are that much better than the current generation of cards. Presumably even the newer games will support SM 3.0 at least for a another year or so.

[WILL]

Confirmed DX10/SM4.0 Games:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=77741

Finally an improvement to game graphics that actually warrent a 'proper' hardware upgrade! :P

I think that this is the era that I remember being mentioned that all games would "look like your playing Shrek". And a Flight Simulator game that I can actually concieve people paying money for. :lol:

Some of those games though, look like they are more of the same as what we have now. Bloodgate: London (or whatever), Company Of Heroes (though a slightly nicer than Return to Castle Wolfinstien) and Halo 2 don't have that CG rendered movie look.

Of course I'm talking about the jump from what we now know as cutting edge PC game graphics to what these ones obviously are going to open our eyes to.

[tux]

screenshots dont do crysis justice, you need to see a gameplay movie for it

[Traveler]

I dont even have the latest nvidia drivers (I really should update those, I know) but those Company of Heroes shots do not look al that different from what I can see with my 6800GT.
Granted, those Crysis screenshots look very nice and I really can't wait to play it. But do I have my doubts about upgrading my videocard & OS once they becomes available, just to play it at DX10. If my current system does the job just as well (judging by CoH it does), I might just stick with what I have for at least another six months.

edit: tux is right. If you have the chance, go watch a few of those games at www.gametrailers.com (http://www.gametrailers.com). Crysis is definitely not one to miss.

[Clootie]

Granted, those Crysis screenshots look very nice and I really can't wait to play it. But do I have my doubts about upgrading my videocard & OS once they becomes available, just to play it at DX10.
Well, I'm afraid you will need to upgrade your videocard just to play in DX9 mode :lol: :twisted:

[Traveler]

System specs for crysis as told by an admin on the crysis forums:

Minimum Requirements

CPU: Athlon 64 3000+/Intel 2.8ghz
Graphics: Nvidia 6600/X800GTO (SM 2.0)
RAM: 768Mb/1Gb on Windows Vista
HDD: 6GB
Internet: 256k+
Optical Drive: DVD
Software: DX9.0c with Windows XP

Recommended Requirements

CPU: Dual-core CPU (Athlon X2/Pentium D)
Graphics: Nvidia 7800GTX/ATI X1800XT (SM 3.0) or DX10 equivalent
RAM: 1.5Gb
HDD: 6GB
Internet: 512k+ (128k+ upstream)
Optical Drive: DVD
Software: DX10 with Windows Vista

[tux]

Done! Now to convince the wife that this will be good for her as well as the rest of the family.

order it when shes asleep, get it delivered to work and install it in your lunch break. dispose of boxes / old hardware and she will never know ;)

[edit].

woah i think something went wrong with the time! my post is way up here :D

[tanffn]

Games actually use the Dual-core capabilities? :shock: From what I read most of the companies said it doesn’t worth the effort.. (debug a multi-threaded game)

btw im with in the minimum requirements spec! ..is that a good thing :eh:

[savage]

I plan on getting an X2/AM2 with 2GB of Ram and an 7600GT. That should be ok for now, surely???

[Traveler]

Yeah, sounds like it is.

[savage]

Done! Now to convince the wife that this will be good for her as well as the rest of the family.

[tanffn]

:salute: nicely done, may I ask what did you end up telling her? (it can come up handy)

[savage]

woah i think something went wrong with the time! my post is way up here :D
yes the time was messed up, but the server people seem to have fixed it now. I was unable to post anything for a few hours due to the time difference.

[savage]

OK I just ordered the following...

1 x MBB-M2N42 Motherboard Bundle - AMD X2 4200 AM2, Heatsink and Fan, 1024MB DDR2 533 RAM, Asus AM2 Motherboard

1 x NOV-76GT Novatech GeForce 7600GT PCI-E 256MB DDR3 DVI/TVO SLI

All for £380.00. I hope it all works flawlessly or the wife will have my head on a plate.

Thanks to everyone who gave me guidance.