Rise Of The Raiders - Outer Reaches Studios 'Big Boss' Entry

[AthenaOfDelphi]

<center>http://ore.outer-reaches.co.uk/files/RiseOfTheRaidersBanner.gif</center>

Hi all,

Heres a link to the website I've set up to host all things OR¬?E, that includes the final 'Big Boss' submission. Theres not a lot there at the moment, but as the project progresses we'll add stuff to the site.

Our entry didn't get finished... the enemies are at this time simply static images, but this will give you an idea of where we're going with it.

The first startup will take a long time as it decompresses the game data and stores the uncompressed version, after that, the load times shouldn't be too bad.

We set out with the intention of making a retro style role play. We hit all the deadlines bang on, but at stage 4, it became clear that the implementation was heavily flawed... so much so, that we took the decision to rewrite the play engine. The net result is that the game lacks some key features. The key ones being the ability to shoot and the ability to die. However, this does mean you can take your time and have a good stroll around and take in the scenery.

We have a lot more that we want to put into the game, so development is definitely going to continue.

Thanks to WILL, the judges and everyone else (competitors and staff) who has been involved with the competition. Its been rather stressful, but ultimately, its been a great experience and its opened my eyes about developing client based games.

OR¬?E Homepage (http://ore.outer-reaches.co.uk) - Go here and visit the 'Downloads' section. There you'll find the final competition submission.

[WILL]

I tried d/ling it and it said it was corrupt. Maybe you got the URL wrong? Just left clicking sends me to your website.

[Huehnerschaender]

same to me....

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Huge Edit :-)

I've created a site for OR¬?E and I've uploaded the files... I had actually uploaded a file, but it wasn't the right one, so its a good thing I was half asleep :-D

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Just in case an edit doesn't flag up the thread... I'll spam it :-)

[aidave]

I played your game,
I wandered around and went in some buildings, and found a chalice, then an Earthquake started hurting me but I escape into a maze. I had fun running about the maze but it seemed that was the end.

the graphics are nice (reminds me of Ultima). Combined with your massive multiplayer game I think you could make some kind of "ultima-online-in-space", that'd be pretty cool.

[Traveler]

I've taken the time to download and play your entry for a while.
It worked pretty much okay for me. The initial loading time took a while as you wrote in your post (it actually made me think how long it would take on lesser configurations than mine (3ghz, 1gig ram)), but the second time it started a whole lot quicker.

I got as far as a bit after the second level, where I got lost in the maze.
In any case, I'm looking forward to see where this is leading to.

[czar]

Wow the initial startup took ages. I mean at least 3-4 minutes. I would suggest doing something about that. e.g. have a install that does that decompressing for you.

You guys have put in a lot of work and I hope you continue to develop.

Initially I could not work out why I was walking backwards. It took a while to realise that the mouse cursor was where the guy was pointing.

Couldn't seem to get into buildings.

Couldn't bring up the console. But FPS seemed very fast. The little man walks very quickly which makes him look nervous.

I couldn't walk in a diagonal line which seemed odd.

If you have a chance I would suggest that the fog off war could be less rigid, at the moment you have very sharp defined lines about what you can and can't see. If you can I would use some alphablending to make it foggy.

[Robert Kosek]

Startup was quite slow, but since it's a cached decompression I'm not to concerned about that. The cached load is much faster. By the way, the loading bar looks like a Cylon's eye. ;)

One bug that forced me to restart is that of the infinite pause/inventory loop. While paused I accidentally hit "I" and my inventory came up. It's not a biggie, but when I closed it I was still paused. Try to resume and the inventory screen came up again. Hide it, and I'm still paused.

The animations were quite fast, far to fast for my taste. It makes the character look like they're running a marathon just to get 1 tile crossed. However, the teleport animation is perfect in speed and effect. :D I love that one.

I noticed that the teleport takes a few moments to trigger, you might want to make that happen just a tidbit quicker; I've teleported from 4 tiles away from the pad a time or two. And once I got stuck on a telepad and couldn't move, seemingly teleporting to nowhere (I went invisible) then appearing somewhere else 5 seconds later. I think it's tied to your sound.

Also, when walking to the end-level teleporter, rounding the final bend, my guy moved 2 tiles in almost 100th the time it normally takes. He somehow got semi-stuck there. I just encountered this 3 other times and noticed that it seems tied to the proximity of special spots... for instance I just found some Uranium in the 2nd level.

Overall the graphics are excellent and tie directly into the 2D RPG "feeling", but the sound leaves a bit to be desired. Also the game is VERY tempermental about loosing focus, which seems to be tied to the teleportation delay, and some sound delays as well. What previously was smooth has become very choppy as I've written this. I reassigned the console key to my QWERTY tilde/accent key (`/~) and after turning the FPS on, I noted that it's about -13 to -20.

Overall I liked it, and I hope you get some equipment, experience points and opponents into the game. ;) It's a bit boring without them.

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback, its much appreciated.


I played your game,
I wandered around and went in some buildings, and found a chalice, then an Earthquake started hurting me but I escape into a maze. I had fun running about the maze but it seemed that was the end.

the graphics are nice (reminds me of Ultima). Combined with your massive multiplayer game I think you could make some kind of "ultima-online-in-space", that'd be pretty cool.

There is another level after the maze, you just have to work out how to get to the final island of the maze level ;-) The graphics... we both play Ultima (Chesapeake) and we both like the retro style, so that may explain it, but we owe a big thank you to my brother for them. As for Ultima in space... we have talked at great length about creating a client for our game... we've never gone down that road because I was too chicken... the prospect of writing a client blew my mind because I had no idea how easy it could be to create something that has potential. All I'm going to say at this point is stay tuned :-)


The initial loading time took a while as you wrote in your post (it actually made me think how long it would take on lesser configurations than mine (3ghz, 1gig ram)), but the second time it started a whole lot quicker.



Wow the initial startup took ages. I mean at least 3-4 minutes. I would suggest doing something about that. e.g. have a install that does that decompressing for you.


The load time is a huge issue, but its one that I'm going to be addressing. The compression was really only for the competition because of the upload limit. One of the limiting factors is not being able to quickly load a tile when I need it.

The initial startup does kind of do an install. It loads the compressed data, decompresses it and then saves the uncompressed version in the cache directory and timestamps it to the same as the source game file. After that, the engine does a timestamp check and only loads the compressed version (an re-caches) if the timestamps on the files change. If they are the same, it simply loads the uncompressed one.

Its strange actually, because on my Athlon 800, it takes less time to process the game data than it does on my 2.4GHz works laptop, and thats even when I run through the debugger.



Couldn't seem to get into buildings.

Couldn't bring up the console.

I couldn't walk in a diagonal line which seemed odd.


None of the buildings bar the shop on the first level are accessible at this time. We are waiting for the artwork.

The console key has caused issues for one of the judges IIRC. It is configureable so you can change it to suit yourself.

Couldn't walk in a diagonal... it can be a bit tricky to start a diagonal walk... hitting two keys near simulatenously on a fast machine could be pretty tricky I guess. Mouse move is much easier :-)



But FPS seemed very fast. The little man walks very quickly which makes him look nervous.



The animations were quite fast, far to fast for my taste. It makes the character look like they're running a marathon just to get 1 tile crossed.

After turning the FPS on, I noted that it's about -13 to -20.


The FPS isn't too bad. He does walk too quickly. I plan on implementing a self regulation routine so he walks at about 25fps regardless of refresh rate.

-13 to -20 - How strange... I'd be interested to know your machine specs. I just looked at the code in case I was doing something strange with data types, but I'm not so I can't explain that.



One bug that forced me to restart is that of the infinite pause/inventory loop. While paused I accidentally hit "I" and my inventory came up. It's not a biggie, but when I closed it I was still paused. Try to resume and the inventory screen came up again. Hide it, and I'm still paused.


There are a couple of initite loops possible in the state machine at the moment. Inventory Pause being one of them. Another occurs I believe if you try and access the console while its loading/initialising. I just have to tidy up the state switcher and include some additional gaurd conditions and they should be sorted.



noticed that the teleport takes a few moments to trigger, you might want to make that happen just a tidbit quicker; I've teleported from 4 tiles away from the pad a time or two. And once I got stuck on a telepad and couldn't move, seemingly teleporting to nowhere (I went invisible) then appearing somewhere else 5 seconds later. I think it's tied to your sound.


This could be as a result of the system running the scripts in a seperate thread, which it does to ensure the renderer isn't blocked, thus the teleport animation (and others) is possible. This should be relatively simple to fix, by blocking movement until the script processor thread has finished. Once I've implemented a fix, I'd like to hear how you get on with.


but the sound leaves a bit to be desired

I couldn't have put it better myself, but we quite simply ran out of time.


Also, when walking to the end-level teleporter, rounding the final bend, my guy moved 2 tiles in almost 100th the time it normally takes. He somehow got semi-stuck there. I just encountered this 3 other times and noticed that it seems tied to the proximity of special spots... for instance I just found some Uranium in the 2nd level.

You have discovered the movement costs system. I implemented it to make it more difficult to travel in certain directions (uphill, through bushes for example). Each cell can specify whether a particular direction is a slow, medium or fast travel, or it can completely block travel in a particular direction. Rounding the final bend of the maze level, you are walking up hill, so you slow down... going the other way, you are walking down hill, so you speed upt.
high speed direction



Also the game is VERY tempermental about loosing focus, which seems to be tied to the teleportation delay, and some sound delays as well. What previously was smooth has become very choppy as I've written this.


Could you check the log file in the application directory please Robert, and if it has anything interesting in it, email it to me please if you wouldn't mind. As for being tempremental when losing focus... it is... I have a fix implemented for that issue... its just no enabled at thie time.

[Robert Kosek]

The log merely contains:
12-05-06 14:28:42 00938523 - ORE Play Engine (Ver. 0.0 II dev - Apr 2006)
12-05-06 14:28:42 00938523 - Session Started
12-05-06 15:00:43 00AF756B - Session Ended


-13 to -20 - How strange... I'd be interested to know your machine specs. I just looked at the code in case I was doing something strange with data types, but I'm not so I can't explain that. Exactly why I was a bit puzzled. Here's my specs: ASUS A7N8X-X, NVidia nForce2, 400Mhz FSB
AMD 2700XP w/Barton Core (~2.2Ghz)
512MB DDR SDRAM
ATI 9800XT 256MB (Catalyst 6.4, 8x AGP Slot)
An older C-Media Soundcard
Acer AL1916 LCD, 1280x1024@75hz
Windows XP Home, SP2, Latest updates

It ocurred slowly, as the window lost focus while animations ran, and sounds played (sometimes). Over about 10 focus changes, to and from, the slowdown peaked at that negative range.


This could be as a result of the system running the scripts in a seperate thread, which it does to ensure the renderer isn't blocked, thus the teleport animation (and others) is possible. This should be relatively simple to fix, by blocking movement until the script processor thread has finished. Once I've implemented a fix, I'd like to hear how you get on with. Probably so. ;) Just send me a PM once the next version is ready, or I could give you my email.


I couldn't have put it better myself, but we quite simply ran out of time. I completely understand. :)


You have discovered the movement costs system. I implemented it to make it more difficult to travel in certain directions (uphill, through bushes for example). Each cell can specify whether a particular direction is a slow, medium or fast travel, or it can completely block travel in a particular direction. Rounding the final bend of the maze level, you are walking up hill, so you slow down... going the other way, you are walking down hill, so you speed upt.
high speed direction Aha. It's just humorous that my speed went down to almost 10% of what it was previously, walking on a road and just turning the bend there.

As I said, let me know once you've got a new version and I'll be happy to test it for you. I've beta tested before, so don't worry about it, it's fun. ;) Sci-Fi is one of my favorite genres, and I've looked at your other games already.

[WILL]

Hey Christina,

Anything new on the 'Outer Reaches'? Still waiting for the day for the Raiders to finally rise! ;)

I also never got a chance to get to see this game in action either. For some reason my laptop won't play the game.

Any luck with the new game engine?

[AthenaOfDelphi]

As with a lot of our side projects, its been put on hold. We are desperately low on money and the browser game is just continuing to be a bottomless pit in that respect. It doesn't help when scumbags pay and donate money with a fraudulent credit card.... you generally get screwed for not being vigilant enough... even though PayPal are the only people who can really validate the information.

Although the second generation of engine was much better, it was still sadly lacking in some key areas, like the fact that it takes longer on faster machines to load than it does on my humble Athlon 800 (I can't explain why this should be).... so I've decided to ditch it all and start a new version that will take into account what I've learned so far.

[jasonf]

What problems have you had with your donation system?
Forgive my ignorance and that this message is off topic, I will be adding an online payment system to my site soon to allow people to buy my game and could benefit from your experiences.

Do you get fined if someone tries to pay you with a fraudulent credit card or is it that the payment seems to arrive then is mysteriously taken away?..

I REALLY don't understand why people donate using a fraudulent card anyway.. it's not like it's even their money to give away.. they get no real benefit from it, so why do they bother?. :?

I'm wondering, exactly what is it you're supposed to do in those curcumstances.. seems way beyond anything you (as the shop keeper) can control.

I hope you have better luck soon.

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Basically our browser game is free to play, but there are some restrictions. Players can remove them by buying an upgrade code, but because some people like to help out, we give the players the option to donate money without getting anything in return.

We think this guy was trying to impress Spirit, which at the time, we were both really pleased. He bought an upgrade code and donated nearly £100, which went a very long way to covering the monthly costs.

Because its all electronic (upgrade code is emailed to the PayPal account that sent the funds), we don't ask for postal addresses. Turns out that if you ask for postal addresses there is a better chance that PayPal will be able to spot fraudulent payments (comparing credit card holders address with that supplied by the person paying), so point 1.... alway always get a postal address.

In all, the guy made 3 payments. One for is upgrade code which went to the PayPal business account that I manage and then 2 donations which went to the PayPal business account Spirit manages. Point 2... if you use PayPal only use 1 business account (we did two so accounting would be easier) because they won't talk to me about the payments on the acocunt Spirit manages and vice versa which makes it difficult to keep track of whats happening.

Point 3... Do NOT allow players to make simple donations. Of the three transactions, the two donations have already been reversed (so we are £75 down instantly, plus fees). The reason it appears is that there is not exchange of goods/services so PayPal don't even bother to fight them it seems.

And to top it off, the guy had the balls to send me an email asking why he couldn't log into his account. Needless to say, I mailed him back asking if he remembered the payments he made to us and whether he could explain why they had been reversed..... that was last week.... I'm still waiting for a reply.

The biggest problem is being able to validate that the person with the card is who they say they are.... now I would have thought that the responsibility for that lay with the people taking the money... namely PayPal. But clearly I was grossly mistaken. If you can afford to go all the way and get your own merchant account, then do so and use someone like WorldPay or Datacash or anyone other than PayPal. I'm not happy with any aspect of their service when it comes to taking money. We even had a situation where they couldn't calculate the VAT properly.. as a result our fully automated code issuing system had to be taken offline. And when I talked to their tech support all they could say was that it was our responsibility to collect the VAT... even though we didn't have access to the customers address at that point (and obviously could not decide whether they were in the EU or not).

As for charges... if you are found to have been negligent when taking the payment, then yes, you can be charged fees. We have been it appears. And this goes back to my general view of PayPal.... they offer a sellers protection program... but this is only effective if you collect the buyers postal address.... so why not collect it everytime and then only pass it on to the seller if they need it? Simple things like that could make them much better, but overall at this point as far as I'm concerned PayPal sucks and if you can avoid it, do so. But there in lies the problem... most of the other clearnance services like WorldPay etc. only become viable when your volume of transactions is quite high.... until then, you end up losing money.

And thanks :-)

[jasonf]

Wow, Thanks for the advice.. you've certainly been through a lot.

I've just looked at Worldpay, I'm always worried when someone selling something doesn't put a price on their site.. So I've got to get an Internet Merchant Account, I pay a one off fee.. I pay a monthly fee.. I pay a transaction fee... I'm gonna have to check my bank details to see if I've paid a Looking at their website fee..

All I want to do is accept money from people. :( I can't be sure I'm going to get enough sales to warrant a Worldpay account :cry:

I'll have to sell a couple of thousand units a month just to break even with WorldPay it seems (OK, I'm being negative)

So I guess I'll have to put up with Paypal.. and based on your experiences, it's not going to be a happy time either.


Savage, have you had any issues with Online transactions?

[AthenaOfDelphi]

The key thing is being able to trace the individual.

If you are dealing in real physical items its easy. Grab their address and send the goods there using recorded delivery that must get a signature. PayPal assure me that in those situations, they are more able to dispute chargebacks.... but you only have their word that the address they give you is the card holders address and there in lies the problem.

You are right about Worldpay and practically all the other big clearance services. The fees they want are extortion and so, yes you, like us, are most likely to be stuck with PayPal or some other clearance service along the same lines.

[savage]

I'm using Paypal on my site, but have only sold 3 items so far, so am probably way below the threshold that Athena is experiencing. So far the 3 people have been honest. I am also not accepting donations so that may be another difference.

[WILL]

Sorry to hear about all the financial woes. :? The gaming business can be harsh at times I guess.


Do you think that 'Rise Of The Raiders' might be able to help you pick things up? Or do you think that it might be a better route to try and straighten out the finances of the Browser game first?

Offering a new experience might be 1) refreshing for you and Spirit in the sense that you are doing something in a totally different medium and 2) boost interest from an existing and a new audience as players will get to try something new, but in the same 'universe' that you have already established.

Of course there are new problems and dangers to any new things you try though. But I'm pretty sure that I'm just preaching to the choir here. ;)


Was 'OR3' supposed to be a MMOG or standalone anyhow? I got the impression that it was going to eventually have an online aspect to it.