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McCLaw
29-05-2006, 12:37 PM
Looks Like the Entries are being judged now :D:D :shock: 8)

WILL
30-05-2006, 02:12 AM
Yes, Eric has finished his Stage 6 Goal Scores. Waiting on Dean, he is still trying to finish all your games to catch all the goal points. :)
After this both Dean and Eric will release their judged scores for the BIG 4 categories that everyone has been waiting on with bated breath. (Sorry for the wait --start breathing! ;))

Comments for the Stage 6 will reflect Stage 6 goals only where as Final Scoring Comments will instead cover the entire 'completed' entry for ALL teams that submitted an entry. Your LAST entry will be scored under the 4 categories and Time Management Points will be added up to make the 5th category for the teams' Final Scores.

Also, in addition to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place prizes. We will be giving out 4 special awards for 'Best Graphics', 'Best Sound', 'Most Innovative' and 'Most On Time'!

Eric
30-05-2006, 05:49 AM
Stage 6 scores weren't fully entered, now they should be. :wink:

Huehnerschaender
30-05-2006, 07:41 AM
I am the only one without any comments.
Is this ok or is there something missing?

Greetings,
Dirk

McCLaw
30-05-2006, 08:09 AM
I am the only one without any comments.
Is this ok or is there something missing?

Greetings,
Dirk

Hey Dirk

I recon not having comments is a good thing :)

If you have comments it meens something is wrong.

I also think you are going to win the compo IMHO.

NecroDOME
30-05-2006, 08:28 AM
...crossing fingers...

Huehnerschaender
30-05-2006, 08:47 AM
Hi McCLaw,

thanks for your confidence :) But there are some other games I am really frightened of (SCAG, Torture Tank (what I saw in the video), Blocked, only to mention a few!). There is really great stuff coming out of the compo this year!

I just thought that there must be something that is not 100% ok, because there are already one or two bugs found by others (see Tanx-Thread) and Eric also mentions very small issues like a missing sound on something or a little flicker on screen when objects collide.
That's why I am thinking that my comments are just missing ^^

Sure, I agree, having no comments is good in this case.

Greetings,
Dirk

AthenaOfDelphi
30-05-2006, 09:09 AM
I know its only 2.5 points, but I'd like to ask why we didn't get the points for the ending sequence, since you get Level Complete messages and when you get to the end of the third level you get a Game Complete message.

Just curious?

As for the load times... the problem is that it loads the entire media collection for the whole game in a single hit. Maps load in a split second though once the media has done. I've got one or two schemes worked out to reduce the load times in a future version.

The problem with the menu options when its not active during load... thats because they are loaded into a different TDXImageList to the main media... got a fix for that too :-)

And yeah, it is a shame that it needed a rewrite, but its our first competition... our first client based game engine... and well, we've achieved more than we thought possible, so we're happy :-)

McCLaw
30-05-2006, 09:55 AM
Hi McCLaw,

thanks for your confidence :) But there are some other games I am really frightened of (SCAG, Torture Tank (what I saw in the video), Blocked, only to mention a few!). There is really great stuff coming out of the compo this year!

I just thought that there must be something that is not 100% ok, because there are already one or two bugs found by others (see Tanx-Thread) and Eric also mentions very small issues like a missing sound on something or a little flicker on screen when objects collide.
That's why I am thinking that my comments are just missing ^^

Sure, I agree, having no comments is good in this case.

Greetings,
Dirk

I guess we'll just have to wait and see ;)

idee_fixe
30-05-2006, 05:56 PM
With regards to Eric's note about being able to 'break away' from the conversation at the start of each level - that was intentional, so you don't have to sit through it each time your restart a level if you don't want to. But why would you not want to? ;)

Eric
30-05-2006, 06:02 PM
I am the only one without any comments.
Is this ok or is there something missing?

oops, must have missed the click on "update"...


I recon not having comments is a good thing Smile
If you have comments it meens something is wrong.

Comments in Stage 6 were for nitpicking/bugs/annoyances, to keep them out of the "final" game comments, so no comments = no bugs...'till I enter something in there :wink:


Eric also mentions very small issues like a missing sound on something or a little flicker on screen when objects collide.

I usually list all the things that draw my attention, up to the point when the text becomes too long (which can mean many small things, or something that takes more words to explain), so as not end up with comments length too strikingly long between entries. Not a perfect way to balance things by far... but food for thought for next challenge's approach to commenting
:P


I know its only 2.5 points, but I'd like to ask why we didn't get the points for the ending sequence, since you get Level Complete messages and when you get to the end of the third level you get a Game Complete message.
Just curious?

The readme didn't mention it, and since not much was moving anymore, I assumed it was more a last demo than anything else, and my exploration was limited to covering up all I could of the map and I missed the exit (didn't search for one) (btw, the level designer as such an habit of hiding stuff behind buildings, that it becomes the #1 spot to look when searching for items ;))

>As for the load times... the problem is that it loads the entire media >collection for the whole game in a single hit

There may be some extra processing involved in there, as there isn't that much media (compared to other tile-based 2D engines).

Eric
30-05-2006, 06:05 PM
With regards to Eric's note about being able to 'break away' from the conversation at the start of each level - that was intentional, so you don't have to sit through it each time your restart a level if you don't want to. But why would you not want to? ;)

That wasn't clear, as it felt kind of a "cheat" way to get away, with your view direction still locked and a certain difficulty to move... fast forwading when hitting ESC would have felt more "natural". :wink:

Eric
30-05-2006, 08:11 PM
Here's a quick roundup of entry issues specific to my HTPC system :)

Specs: Sempron 2600+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce 6100 (64MB shared) 1360x768 (16/9 LCD TV), Realtek AC97 audio hooked to 5.1 hifi amplifier.

16/9 ratio and resolution support was spotty to say the least, so assume "unsupported" and playtesting at 1024x768x32bits unless mentionned otherwise.

Entries by team number order:

Verne-X: Sounds was very "cracky" and full of noise. Framerate ok.

Blocked: Weird flickering box around the mouse cursor (driver issue?). Framerate ok except when fighting bosses.

SCAG: Framerate choppy on all big explosions, ok the rest of the time. Mouse cursor remained visible. Some "dark areas" (after the city) looked a lot brighter than on my PC (could see what was there!).

TortureTank: Tried adjusting res in the .ini, but setting ignored by startup menu. Framerate around 20 FPS. Tank movement were.. sliding, more snowboard-like than tank-like (physics effect linked to low framerate?).

Draconia: Framerate ok. Big screen made more noticeable a bug with some bonus and dead enemies which is that they don't "stay put" on the ground, but are oscillating up/down by one pixel.

ROTR: Splash screen graphic quite washed out. Framerate was good, better than on my main dual-core GF6800XT machine, and without slowdowns (multithreading issues?).

EarthUnderFire: 16/9 full resolution support 8) Framerate ok. Only glitch was the text font, which isn't scaled with resolution and was quite small.

VillageDefense: Wouldn't start because of missing OpenAL (could be worth it distributing the software version as fallback, for drivers that don't provide it).

Castle: Framerate slow, ran out of memory (and swapped memory), some textures missing (like the one for the huge wall in 1st level). No sound.

TANX: Main menu music crackled then became silent. Ingame music and sound FX were there, but at a low volume. Framerate below 30 FPS, hard to aim (in mission 1, I ran out of ammo in the first "pen", and got stuck in there, collapsed wall blocks wouldn't allow to get out).

ArcticMacrob: Framerate ok, sound ok. Background plane a little washed out, no problems with other elements.

michalis
30-05-2006, 09:33 PM
Castle: Framerate slow, ran out of memory (and swapped memory), some textures missing (like the one for the huge wall in 1st level). No sound.


Low framerate and missing textures may be the result of large memory use (although missing textures shouldn't happen ever, so this may indicate problem in OpenGL driver). Do you have latest drivers from nvidia.com installed ? I understand that on your other system with GeForce, framerate was good ?

As for "no sound" --- you have to install OpenAL yourself, otherwise no sound will be played. In the future, when real exe installer for Windows will be made, then probably I'll include OpenAL exe installer. And when real packages for Linux will be done, they will depend on OpenAL packages. For now, you have to install OpenAL yourself. This is uncomfortable for user, but this also means that user gets always latest OpenAL bugfixes from Creative, not some outdated OpenAL version included in my game.

michalis
30-05-2006, 11:15 PM
Castle: Framerate slow, ran out of memory (and swapped memory), some textures missing (like the one for the huge wall in 1st level). No sound.


Low framerate and missing textures may be the result of large memory use (although missing textures shouldn't happen ever, so this may indicate problem in OpenGL driver).

And one other thing: version 0.6.1 (submitted for PGD last stage) requires almost 500 MB of memory (later version 0.6.3 reduces this to 280 MB, but this doesn't count for the competition...). Under Windows these requirements are slightly lower (because NVidia drivers are better optimized under Windows...). And these numbers may vary depending on your OS/driver version.

The bottom line is: if we're talking about Windows system with 512 MB of memory, then make sure that you're running the game on a "clean" system --- no process running in the background actively holding some part of memory. (Same thing for Linux, actually, but on Linux programs are usually smarter and less demanding, so OS is more likely to swap *other processes* to clean memory for my game).

michalis
30-05-2006, 11:49 PM
Some answers for my stage 6 comments:

Dean comment:



Had to chear as I couldn't find the sword on the first level.


Look for the sword item inside the grave (on the cemetary marked with large sword monument). Hint: you will need scroll of flying, so be sure to find it too. (Every other player who tested was able to found this sword, AFAIK :) )

Eric comments:

More comfortable display frequency setting, and less damage from mini-falls: these are 2 known things, will be fixed.



In windowed mode, the mouse is captured by the game (and the game window can lose focus, meaning it won't respond to keypresses f.i.).


For mouse looking, mouse cursor is hidden and it cannot leave the game window. That's the way mouse look must work. But the cursor is visible (and unlocked) when you enter game menu (Escape key), or switch to other window by alt+tab etc. However, I just saw one problem: when you switch (alt+tab) to other window, but the game window remains visible on the desktop, then the mouse is hidden when you mouse over the game window (even though the other window has focus). OK, it will be fixed. Temporary solution for you is just to exit to game menu before alt+tabbing, or not hovering with mouse cursor over the game window if you don't want to.



Loading times very slow, could be worth distributing/caching in precomputed files whatever is precomputed.


Loading time should be about 1 minute for version 0.6.1, assuming NVidia newest drivers. Be sure to have the required amount of memory, see my earlier post. And this is only for the first "New Game" call --- for subsequent level changing/restarting the game after death, loading times should be < 10 secs (as most things are already kept in memory).

There are not many things that can cached in files (normall vectors are right now computed on the fly, they could be recorded in VRML file --- but when profiling with gprof, it looked like it would save only about 10% of loading time; so no real gain...). Most of the "Loading ..." overhead is related to pushing things into OpenGL display lists, see my posts in "Stage 5 feedback" thread.



At one startup, I got an error about a ModeGL failure because it couldn't operate on a closed window.


There was a bug in 0.6.1 version (fixed in 0.6.3): if a bug occured elsewhere, the proper error message could be "hidden" by error message about "ModeGL cannot be called ...". In other words: something went wrong, but this is not related to ModeGL :) Can you reproduce this ? By "at startup" do you mean that it occured right after running the game (not e.g. at the loading of "New Game") ?

McCLaw
31-05-2006, 05:39 AM
[quote="Eric"]Here's a quick roundup of entry issues specific to my HTPC system :)

Specs: Sempron 2600+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce 6100 (64MB shared) 1360x768 (16/9 LCD TV), Realtek AC97 audio hooked to 5.1 hifi amplifier.

TortureTank: Tried adjusting res in the .ini, but setting ignored by startup menu. Framerate around 20 FPS. Tank movement were.. sliding, more snowboard-like than tank-like (physics effect ]

20 FPS :shock: :shock: :shock: I wonder if its not the shared memory of the GFX card.

I generally get 150 to 400 FPS on my GF 5600 128Mg running dual screens

What did you adjust the rez in the ini to?

Eric
31-05-2006, 05:49 AM
Do you have latest drivers from nvidia.com installed ?

No, it has the drivers that worked well with the TV & DVD player, which is not the latest - it's an HTPC 1st after all ;) - as the latest drivers had a glitch when coming out of hibernation.


I understand that on your other system with GeForce, framerate was good ?

Other system has 6800XT with 256MB and 2GB of main RAM, so it's a bit above average specs ;)
The HTPC has a 6100, which is an integrated graphics chipset.

For OpenAL, I personnally am able to fix and find it, but for players and users at large, that may be a tougher proposition (though even personnally, not tracking OpenAL closely means I've no idea if the software OpenAL DLL I found was really a recent one, if you provided one, you would be able to make sure it worked well for all your game's needs).


Most of the "Loading ..." overhead is related to pushing things into OpenGL display lists, see my posts in "Stage 5 feedback" thread.

Ok. As other have pointed, you usually use display lists only for static geometry. For animated geometry, vertices and normals are usually interpolated on the fly and rendered directly, which allows to have many animation frames, skeletal animations, merged animations, etc. even on high polycount models without facing a huge memory consumption.
Display lists are also unlikely to perform very well when used in that fashion, nVidia drivers may not balk too much, but chances are your framerate is lower than what it could be.


Can you reproduce this ? By "at startup" do you mean that it occured right after running the game (not e.g. at the loading of "New Game") ?

Didn't happen again, and when it happened, I had just closed an instance and restarted another, so I'm unsure wether it was an error due to the previous instance not being completely terminated, or to the new instance that was just starting up.

McCLaw
31-05-2006, 06:12 AM
Cool :) Dean has added his scores also :)

Huehnerschaender
31-05-2006, 06:33 AM
The splash screen has a blueish border of 2-3 pixels at the right (most visible on the bottom 2/3, GF6800XT).
When fully zoomed in 1 pixels black gaps can become visible between terrain tiles (when zoomed out, the occurence is only visible around the turning/end road tiles).
These things are related to Antialiased textures. Don't know if it is a bug in Apshyre, but when textures are antialiased, the border pixels get "mixed" with memory "pixels", because they have no neighbour pixel in the texture. I already mentioned this several times on the Asphyre forums, but the only way to provide this yet is to "cut" the border pixels of the textures when displaying, which would manipulate seemless textures in beeing not seemless anymore. So I have to live with it right now (or redesign my textures using only 264x264 used pixels).


Mission briefing background texture is pixellated ('nearest' filtering).
Quick and dirty solution for briefing screen. Just took a texture and stretched it to the background. Initially I had other plans with the briefing screen, but time got too short.


Music volume changes when you click on menu items to start a mission/exit (went very loud once while it was on the hifi chain), when changing the "effects" options, multiple musics start playing at the same time.
I know of the bug with multiple songs beeing played. Changing volume is new to me, but I will investigate it when I go on with Tanx.


You tank can "roll through" choppers that are taking off without bumping (that can't be hit by the ground gun, but not anti-air gun).
I didn't test collision with choppers, because you never know where they come down when destroyed. So I decided not to let them collide with player, otherwise when more than one heli gets down in the same area, they could provide player from going on.


Main menu music crackled then became silent.
Main music became silent? First time I hear of this. Is it just stopping or fading out volume?


Ingame music and sound FX were there, but at a low volume.
Hmmm.... The sound effects are mainly placed in 3D space with camera set as "spectator". So the more you zoom out, the farer away you are from the happenings, so the volume of sound effects gets lower. But the music never should change volume. I recognize very much issues with sound that you mention, others never have seen. Are you sure there is no problem with your sound card/drivers? I use BASS 2.2 in my game. How are other games working using BASS?


Framerate below 30 FPS
Yes, I know that on shared memory video cards, my game gets quite slow in FPS. I have to do some more optimizing on this later on.


hard to aim
?? ^^ :) You have to use the mouse ^^
just kidding. I know that it is hard to aim air targets. Never heard of hard aiming on ground, though. A little tip: Try disabling the camera rotation on movement in the options, this should help you with better aiming.


in mission 1, I ran out of ammo in the first "pen", and got stuck in there, collapsed wall blocks wouldn't allow to get out
Yes, the wall blocks can prevent you from going on when you run out of ammo. I will make them shootable with machine gun, too.
But for now: You can turn off debris collision in options.

I had to decide between colliding debris and letting the player drive through the blocks. the last looks very unrealistic, so I decided to let them collide with the player, but be able to be destroyed with weapons. For those who don't like this kind of "realism" I implemented the option to turn off the collision with wall blocks. But I will take a look at the "flying velocity of the blocks" and try to calculate them in a way that they can't prevent the player from going on.

Thanks for all the infos, comments and bugs!


btw. Now it is Dean who forgot me with the comments :lol:

Greetings,
Dirk

Eric
31-05-2006, 11:01 AM
What did you adjust the rez in the ini to?

Tried to manually set it to 1360x768, but when starting the game, the combo reverted to the default value.


These things are related to Antialiased textures. Don't know if it is a bug in Apshyre, but when textures are antialiased, the border pixels get "mixed" with memory "pixels", because they have no neighbour pixel in the texture.

Dunno about the internals specific, could be just a missing clamp, clamp_to_edge or equivalent attribute missing for the texture.


Main music became silent? First time I hear of this. Is it just stopping or fading out volume?

It made crackling noises (like VerneX), and then stopped. Only splash screen music did that.


How are other games working using BASS?

Dunno, are there other PGD entries using BASS? I tried an FMOD game during the test session and it no issue. I'll try running some BASS demo.
Are you using environments?


Are you sure there is no problem with your sound card/drivers?

It's a built-in AC97, not a discrete card, latest drivers AFAICT, but those aren't updated often.


I know that it is hard to aim air targets.

Actually it was a reference to the low framerate, which made hard to hit ground targets - the tanks in the pen :)


I will make them shootable with machine gun, too.

Shootable with mgun or "pushable" with the tank should do it.

McCLaw
31-05-2006, 11:07 AM
Tried to manually set it to 1360x768, but when starting the game, the combo reverted to the default value.

Ahh yes, it would do that.

I had to decide on using only rezolutions I could test on (Reliably) to make sure that I didnt tempt fate, and cause rendering artifacts.

Later on I'll write some code to query the PC to find all available rezolutions.

michalis
31-05-2006, 11:08 AM
For OpenAL, I personnally am able to fix and find it, but for players and users at large, that may be a tougher proposition (though even personnally, not tracking OpenAL closely means I've no idea if the software OpenAL DLL I found was really a recent one, if you provided one, you would be able to make sure it worked well for all your game's needs).


There is a ]http://www.camelot.homedns.org/~michalis/openal_notes.php#section_install[/url]. This will always point to the "blessed" (i.e. tested) by me versions of OpenAL that you can use. In case of Windows, there's a direct link to OpenAL exe installer from Creative.

As for casual users: well, most of them figured it out :) Anyway, sure I agree, the plan is to incorporate OpenAL in the future, but this will have to wait until real exe installer for Windows and real Debian packages will be done.

As for my troubles with OpenGL display lists: this all waits until I finally get some free time, and free access to system running Radeon, and will be able to start fixing Radeon problems. Then we'll see how much I'll have to change.

Huehnerschaender
31-05-2006, 11:25 AM
Are you using environments?


Yes, I use "Forest" environment as far as I remember.

Could this be a problem? Then I would rather disable environments instead of fixing problems with specific sound cards atm.

idee_fixe
31-05-2006, 04:29 PM
Both judges have the scores in now! Thanks to both Eric and Dean for your hard work!

We're almost at the finish line now - I'm excited. :D Good luck to all the teams, I am very impressed by what we all managed to accomplish!

WILL
02-06-2006, 02:39 AM
Hey guys, just a little note; This thread is very busy --which is AWESOME!-- but so am I, so I might miss a post at some point. So, just in case anyone has anything they want to address directly to me, just PM me and I'l try my best to answer, if you want an answer in this thread, or any other, just ask me to post a reply to your thread with a little link to the post and I will. Thanks! ;)

aidave
09-06-2006, 02:42 AM
Any word on when the winners will be announced?
Its been 1 month since the contest ended! 8)

Traveler
10-06-2006, 07:38 PM
Come on guys, its a fair question! Its been a whole month now, plus a bit. At least give us in andication of when we can expect results.

Also, WILL, I wrote you a PM last thursday, but I haven't heard from you. Could it be that your inbox is full? Let me know and if need be I can resend the message.

Thanks

aidave
10-06-2006, 07:45 PM
I noticed the scores changed from zeros to ???/1000
does that mean no one got a perfect 1000? ;)

WILL
11-06-2006, 02:41 AM
Sorry guys. I've been a bit busy lately.
Yup the '???' in place of a 0 is my little addition of a 'publish' feature.

This way the whole deadline gets shown at once. So no sneak peeks for you guys! :P :lol:

Eric and Dean are both working on the scores. They are about half way done. They are really putting a lot of thought into their scores as they want to give a really good review of your entries.

I know it's been about a month since the final submissions where taken, but these guys are doing all this along with their already busy schedules. So it takes a bit more time to get the required time aside to sit and go through all 25. However, don't fret, the final scores will be out really soon. ;)

aidave
11-06-2006, 06:16 AM
thanx for the update Will.

if they are halfway done, thats a month from now.
Please give us like a day or two notice on here, before you announce the winners.
Then we can all gather round and be dramatic! :o

McCLaw
12-06-2006, 06:36 AM
thanx for the update Will.

if they are halfway done, thats a month from now.
Please give us like a day or two notice on here, before you announce the winners.
Then we can all gather round and be dramatic! :o

HEHEHE, Be dramatic!, I like that LOL :D

idee_fixe
12-06-2006, 08:09 PM
aidave, you are assuming the judges have been working on them for a solid month. Personally I'm hoping they started on Tuesday, which will mean it's any day now... ;)

And am I just being paranoid, or did the teams get re-arranged on the results page? Tanx is 1, Arctic Macrob is 2 and Blocked is 3 - a taste of things to come, or were they ordered by some other means (submission dates are all out of order, they are not alphabetical...so...).

Thanks again to the judges for taking your time - I'm sure the winner will appreciate the thoroughness when it comes to polishing their entry for the IGF - first submission is in September, by the way (yikes!). Eric and Dean have some hard work (and hopefully fun, if we did our jobs right) ahead of them - I think there are 3 or 4 really strong contenders for first place, and we haven't even seen half of the entrants!

Keep us updated guys, I'll embrace any tidbit or teaser!

Robert Kosek
12-06-2006, 08:22 PM
Well... this ain't their day job you know, so they do it when they can. :P

Gooooooo, judges!

Imp5
13-06-2006, 03:28 PM
And am I just being paranoid, or did the teams get re-arranged on the results page? Tanx is 1, Arctic Macrob is 2 and Blocked is 3 - a taste of things to come, or were they ordered by some other means (submission dates are all out of order, they are not alphabetical...so...).


:roll:
maybe I must think how will I use FMOD :) :) :)

Traveler
13-06-2006, 08:49 PM
And am I just being paranoid, or did the teams get re-arranged on the results page? Tanx is 1, Arctic Macrob is 2 and Blocked is 3 - a taste of things to come, or were they ordered by some other means (submission dates are all out of order, they are not alphabetical...so...).

Keep us updated guys, I'll embrace any tidbit or teaser!

Very observative of you, hehe :wink:

aidave
14-06-2006, 05:12 PM
Welcome: This year's game theme title is 'THE BIG BOSS'! Each team or individual will design a game that features levels and bosses to challenge at the end of each level.

The Rules:
GENRE: Pick and game genre you wish. Either 2D or 3D graphics is fine. Just make sure whatever game you create is organized into LEVELS and has BOSSES your player(s) go(es) up against. All else is open for your creativity.

:read: (http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/competitions.php?p=details&c=1)

aidave
14-06-2006, 08:28 PM
if arctic macrob is really #2 than im upset
no offense to imp5,
i think you made a good and very fun game,
but it simply doesnt qualify for this contest.
you cant win the race if you run on a different track.
neither the theme nor the rules are satisfied...

i know...
there are four categories of scores,
and none of them is a "boss" category.

yet consider this entire contest centers around bosses
therefore those categories should be scored,
taking the bosses into analysis

for example: are the bosses fun and innovative?
how do they look and sound?
etc
we put alot of work into making the coolest and biggest boss we could imagine.
in order to do that, we had to sacrifice many other things.
i'm sure you can understand why. after all,
it is called "THE BIG BOSS COMPETITION"

please consider this !!! :?

Traveler
14-06-2006, 09:17 PM
now, now,.. lets wait untill we have actually seen the results before we start the discussions shall we.

idee_fixe
14-06-2006, 10:50 PM
I agree with Traveler that it is too premature to protest scores and rankings, but aidave does raise a good point: If a game does not satisfy the competitions requirements (in this case only one: levels with bosses), will it be disqualified out right or will it simply lose some points in the scoring? I suppose if it's not clearly stated elsewhere that you will be disqualified it's a little late to do it now, but I agree that a game that does not meet the contest's requirements should not be in the top three!

Now, we'll just wait and see who the top three actually are, and then go from there :lol: !

Huehnerschaender
14-06-2006, 11:32 PM
everyone was able to read the scoring declarations during the contest. all i have seen there is 2.5 for the big boss. nowhere else is stated that points for the endboss are given. if this would have been stated, i guess some entrants would have set their priorities in another way.

but, please wait until you discuss points that are not visible right now.
we have seen in the past that the scoring has been entered on more than one day. so even if the order of the entrys has to do something with the scores, it could also mean that they are very incomplete yet and e.g. only sound is scored right now. just keep patient. i am, too.

greets,
dirk

aidave
15-06-2006, 05:08 PM
imagine soccer finals
and the end score is 3-0
when they hand out the cup,
they give it to the team with no points.

"well, the other team didnt score any goals,
but they have nicer uniforms, and they didnt fall down,
plus they were so much fun to watch,
so we're giving them the cup instead"

:drunk:
hehe



Stage 6 (3 weeks): Apr 16th - May 7th

The last run for it!

Add to your game any way you like,the final result must have:

Goal #1 (2.5 Points) - Create a min. of 3 playable levels.
Goal #2 (2.5 Points) - Add game music and sound effects.
Goal #3 (2.5 Points) - Have a game splash screen showing your game's title.
Goal #4 (2.5 Points) - Add an in-game list of credits listing all involved of it's development.
Goal #5 (2.5 Points) - Have a minimum of 2 mini-bosses you must fight in the game.
Goal #6 (2.5 Points) - Have a minimum of at least 1 kind of enemy per level.
Goal #7 (2.5 Points) - Add an ending sequence of some kind.
Goal #8 (2.5 Points) - Add and design The Big Boss at the end of your game that is tougher than the mini-bosses.


FINAL SCORING: After all the stages are complete and the final submissions are uploaded the judges will then begin awarding each entry with scores for each of # categories; graphics, sound & music, sability & lack of bugs and fun factor.


Final Scoring:


Time Management (Stages 2-5 Goal Points Added) - Max. 100 Points x 2 Judges = Max. 200 Points

Graphics (Judged Score) - Max. 100 Points x 2 Judges = Max. 200 Points

Music & Sound (Judged Score) - Max. 100 Points x 2 Judges = Max. 200 Points

Game Stability (Judged Score) - Max. 100 Points x 2 Judges = Max. 200 Points

Fun & Innovation (Judged Score) - Max. 100 Points x 2 Judges = Max. 200 Points

Total Score - Time Management + Graphics + Music & Sound + Game Stability + Fun & Innovation = / 1000 Points


The 2.5*2 points is only a checkmark for "time management".
It is not a judged score.
The other 4 categories are for judging what we did during that time (made a boss).
Imagine: "The big boss cant be more than 0.5% of the total score, and you dont have to make one if you dont want"
That would be ridiculous, No one should spend any effort making a boss if that were true.
Further more the contest would not be named "THE BIG BOSS COMPETITION" :eh:

Anyways I dont want any games to be disqualified,
I shouldnt have implied that, sorry. :oops:

They should simply be scored in the spirit of the theme,
Thats all i ask ;)

my 2c

Imp5
15-06-2006, 06:13 PM
i'm sure you can understand why. after all,
it is called "THE BIG BOSS COMPETITION"

please consider this !!! :?

There was no any description of bosses from rule-writers. Im not sure that everyone has similar vision of the game boss.

Imp5
15-06-2006, 06:25 PM
Anyways I dont want any games to be disqualified,
I shouldnt have implied that, sorry. :oops:


What if judges read this topic and thought "Sounds fun! It is something new... Its maybe great idea to disqualify somebody."
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Huehnerschaender
15-06-2006, 10:50 PM
In my opinion, the intention of this competition was to write a game engine, which is capable of many features like levels, enemy classes, boss classes, menu classes etc. so that the competitors have a fundament to make a complete game out of it.

If the endboss was worth so much for the compo, then there should have been some additional judgement criterias like:

- innovative kind of boss
- how complex is it
- do you need special tactics to finish it
- does it use a special kind of AI
- etc
- etc
- etc

But all we can read is:

Goal #8 (2.5 Points) - Add and design The Big Boss at the end of your game that is tougher than the mini-bosses.

Tougher..... that could e.g. mean: It has more life points... thats it...

Of course, anyone who wanted (and had the time) to design an endboss, tried to create something that looks more powerful than the minibosses or general enemys. But except of this Goal #8, the endboss is mentioned in no way as being a part of judgement.

Just my thoughts... I have my endboss and I made it more powerful than my other enemys, it uses his own AI and it uses several bossparts, so I don't have to be frightened or something from boss-judgement. I just want to mention how I interpreted the goals and judgement criterias during the competition. The endboss was the last thing on my todo-list, because I really thought (and I still do so) that the endboss is only worth 2.5 points per judge.

Greetings,
Dirk

aidave
16-06-2006, 12:28 AM
In my opinion, the intention of this competition was to write a game engine
Then it would be called "THE GAME ENGINE COMPETITION"


the endboss is only worth 2.5 points per judge
Goal #1 (5 Points) - Make a basic playable game engine.
If the big boss is only worth 5 points, then the game engine is only worth 10.
In a score out of 1000 points, something is odd with that logic.

Huehnerschaender
16-06-2006, 06:03 AM
no, it isn`n because it is not out of 1000 points, but out of 200.
the rest 800 points belong to the judgement of the whole product in my opinion. graphics eg,you can`t give 200 points just because the endboss looks good and the rest loooks crappy. stability, how to judge the stability just taking a look at bosses? or sound?
there are 5 categories which all are meant for the whole game in my opinion. there is not a single category which can be used just for the boss(es).
otherwise we should have just designed bossfights without other content around it.

aidave
16-06-2006, 06:58 AM
you can`t give 200 points just because the endboss looks good

exactly! i completely agree.
now take that logic and apply to the other areas:



you can't give 200 points just because the level looks good


those points include the boss AND the level
no boss = no graphics = no points
therefore a game with no boss cant win all the points



simple analogy:

a chef competition
where contestants cook a steak as the main course,
instead i make a really awesome salad and no steak.
even if it had points for how good the food looks,
and my salad looks better than the steaks...
that doesnt matter,
theres no steak so i cant get enough points to win

any "XYZ COMPETITION" is just that:
a competition to see who makes the best XYZ.
everything else is important too, but its secondary.

this isnt the "best levels competition"
it isnt the "fun graphics competition"
its not the "stablest game competition"
its the "Big Boss Competition"
if you still dont believe me, click here (www.pascalgamedevelopment.com)

8)

Huehnerschaender
16-06-2006, 09:17 AM
you can't give 200 points just because the level looks good


those points include the boss AND the level
no boss = no graphics = no points
therefore a game with no boss cant win all the points


I agree, but it can still achieve MORE points than a game with a boss.

If the level looks good without a boss he gets e.g. 160 points (e.g. -40 because boss is missing).
The game with the boss looks crappy and gets 80 points in total.

Anyway, I think this whole discussion is nonsense! Why?

- Only what the judges say is important, no matter what you think, no matter what I think
- There is no single indication that a game without a boss wins
- There is no single final scoring visible right now
- Only thing we see is a different order of the entrys than the initial one, which indicates NOTHING (what if database is indexed by "last edited date"? What if Tanx and Arctic Macrob got judgement from both judges and Blocked got only one judgement right now?

Why are you so upset? Just sit down and drink a cup of tea, this may help :)

But there is one thing which itches under my fingernails:

There are several hints/advices/statements of the compo-initiators which say that if you don't reach one or more goals, you still can win.
It doesn't say if you don't manage to include an endboss than you missed your chance. One goal is to include/design a boss (again: worth only 2.5 points/judge). If you only missed that, you still have a CHANCE to WIN the compo! Thats how I read the rules. BIG BOSS is only a heading. The content of the entrys is declared very misunderstandable in the GOALS.

If you still dont believe me, click http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/competitions.php?p=details&c=1 and please show me the rule which says that an endboss is essential for winning the compo. 8)

Again, these are just my thoughts. I don't want to take party for anyone. This is just how I personally read the rules. And as you know I am no native english speaking guy, so please correct me if I misinterpreted something.

Personally, I am waiting now and keep myself out of this discussion, because it really makes no sense :) The judges DO know how and what to judge.... I am sure!

Greetings and good luck again,
Dirk

idee_fixe
16-06-2006, 03:57 PM
I think we should leave this to the judges for now; they know what criteria they are applying, and I am sure they will do the utmost to be fair and consistent. There's no sense beating this dead horse - for all we know, it isn't even a horse!

aidave
16-06-2006, 05:43 PM
If you still dont believe me, click http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/competitions.php?p=details&c=1 and please show me the rule which says that an endboss is essential for winning the compo. 8)


The Rules:

GENRE: Pick and game genre you wish. Either 2D or 3D graphics is fine. Just make sure whatever game you create is organized into LEVELS and has BOSSES your player(s) go(es) up against. All else is open for your creativity.

Robert Kosek
16-06-2006, 06:30 PM
I hate to burst all your bubbles, but Arctic Macrob begins with the letter A. If they're going to sort the entries alphabetically it would naturally be up near the top.

And Arctic Macrob has "pseudo" bosses, the things that spawn the various enemies you run into. You merely need to find enough stuff to grow your 'anti-boss' and eliminate the level's boss. Imp5 was just a bit creative with the word "boss" and the common interpretation of it.

It doesn't matter what you all think because the judges word is final. Therefore this arguement is a moot point, why bother continuing?

aidave
17-06-2006, 02:16 AM
Please be fair
and honor the spirit of the competition.
Thats all I ask!

http://www.subtutious.com/forum/images/smiles/eusa_pray.gif

Robert Kosek
17-06-2006, 04:23 AM
All I ask is that you give the judges a chance to actually judge. You know, actually give a "verdict"? I'm not saying they're above the rules, I'm just saying that no one outside them has the authority to enforce the rules.

Get my drift?

Now let's all be quiet and wait for the official word. THEN dispute it if it seems unfair.

Huehnerschaender
17-06-2006, 10:41 AM
/signed

Very strange how some people interprete invisible things :)

idee_fixe
19-06-2006, 03:10 PM
Another re-arrangement on the results page! WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN? :)

I think we're getting close now!

savage
23-06-2006, 12:05 PM
Since the IGF ( www.igf.com ) have announced this year's competition, I thought I would remind everyone that the winner of this year's PGD competition will have their entry fee paid so that they can enter this year's IGF competition in September and as such will therefore represent the Delphi/Pascal game development community.

Traveler
23-06-2006, 12:06 PM
I hope results will be available by then :twisted: (j/k)

Huehnerschaender
23-06-2006, 03:40 PM
lol Traveler ^^

idee_fixe
23-06-2006, 03:43 PM
I was thinking something similar Traveler, whoever ends up winning is only going to have from the end of this competition to September to make a game that's going to be competitive!

NecroDOME
28-06-2006, 01:45 PM
...Still waiting.... :(

McCLaw
28-06-2006, 02:03 PM
...Still waiting.... :(

If you log in on the competitions page, and scroll to the bottom you can see your score as it stands currently (I think...) 8)

Traveler
28-06-2006, 02:25 PM
Nah,.. the list has been altered. Its now ordered by submission date.

McCLaw
28-06-2006, 02:27 PM
Nah,.. the list has been altered. Its now ordered by submission date.

I think you misunderstood.

Step one: Go to the competition page.
Step two: Click on Login (and do so)
Stp three scroll down to the bottom of the resulting page, and look for the score out of 1000 ;)

Traveler
28-06-2006, 03:09 PM
I think you misunderstood.
Yeah I did.


Stp three scroll down to the bottom of the resulting page, and look for the score out of 1000

Hmm, now that I've seen it, I suddenly wish I hadn't. :(

McCLaw
28-06-2006, 03:12 PM
I think you misunderstood.
Yeah I did.


Stp three scroll down to the bottom of the resulting page, and look for the score out of 1000

Hmm, now that I've seen it, I suddenly wish I hadn't. :(

HEHE, same here, mine is VERY LOW :shock: Lets hope is only part of the scoring ;)

NecroDOME
28-06-2006, 03:35 PM
thanks :) (i wasn't logged on :P )

so far so good, but i'm still waiting for the final result...

WILL
28-06-2006, 05:25 PM
Thanks for pointing out the bug McCLaw. :) But as I said before the final results are not all in yet. I expect them to be finished this weekend at the very latest. Some of you guys have to prepare your games for the 2007 IGF afterall. ;)

aidave
28-06-2006, 06:31 PM
i got a peek at our score too and it was pretty low
now its back to ???


Some of you guys have to prepare your games for the 2007 IGF afterall.

Why is games plural there or is that a typo?

Traveler
28-06-2006, 08:09 PM
Why is games plural there or is that a typo?

I hope not :joker: Although I suppose the entry could also turn into a joint venture instead of a one man opp. (if that's not already the case)

Btw is it me or has the entry fee for the Independant Game Festiva increased? It appears to be $95 now. I thought it was $75 last year.
I could be mistaken though.

idee_fixe
28-06-2006, 10:42 PM
Maybe Will did have a slip of the finger with Games, or maybe there is more than one game that so well represents what the Pascal Game Development community can produce that the judges decided to give more than one entry to the IGF, to show off the PGD community to the world!

Or it was a typo, I dunno. Hard to say.

McCLaw
29-06-2006, 06:37 AM
Thanks for pointing out the bug McCLaw. :) But as I said before the final results are not all in yet. I expect them to be finished this weekend at the very latest. Some of you guys have to prepare your games for the 2007 IGF afterall. ;)

LOL, Dang, Dang, Dang, Dang!!

I should have kept my mouth shut ;)

Huehnerschaender
02-07-2006, 06:34 PM
But as I said before the final results are not all in yet. I expect them to be finished this weekend at the very latest.

Hmmm....

WILL
02-07-2006, 07:58 PM
We're almost there I'm just waiting on one of the judges last few numbers and we are done with the final scoring.

Huehnerschaender
02-07-2006, 10:02 PM
:)

Like a quite old song said:

I'm so excited, and I just can't hide it
I'm about to lose control and I think I like it!

WILL
02-07-2006, 10:08 PM
Well in the spirit of the song, *you go girlfrien'!* ;)

Actually, I'm going to start releasing the Competition entries tonight and tomorrow. I intended to do this much earlier, but I've been rather busy with work and such. At least I don't have to go on any more long trips. ;)

Only the final submissions will be released, links to newer versions and official project sites will be provided for those teams that have them. The 2 most important ideas being to promote future development of these very nice games and to retain a historical record of this event.

Plus what fun is making a game for 4 months if noonw plays it? :P

WILL
03-07-2006, 09:19 PM
Everyone should read the latest news post. ;)