PGD 07: Stage 1 - Thoughts from an entrant

[jdarling]

Well, stage 1 is behind us. And after reading the judges comments and reading the other entries that have been so kind as to post their information up, I thought I'd return the favor to PGD and post up some of my own thoughts.

Judges:
Alexey Barkovoy:
Don't get me wrong, but your comments are very very concise, almost too brief in many cases. It would be nice to get a bit more information from you then just "Good doc". How about something on the storyline (where included), info presented, and game design idea.

Christina Warne:
See my comments on Alexey in many cases, though you did provide better feedback overall. As I said, its always good to get as much info out of a judge as you can. Some entrants may not have the resources available to do full reviews with others, and I'm sure that they would love to have as much feedback as they can get.

Sascha Willems:
It really shows that you read every design doc, in some cases I think you read them better then the authors. You can see in your comments that you even went as far as to compare them in your own mind. Your breakout of how you see the categories fitting together, as well as comments on storyline and game concept are perfect :).

Judges In General:
The most difficult thing last year was finding out what we as entrants were doing wrong. Personally, I didn't have anyone that I could bounce my game idea or work against. As the compo progressed I started to find people, but initially I relied almost completely on the judges comments. I'm sure I'm not the only person, and believe me that we as entrants value your input.


Stage 1:
Personally, I had no problem with Stage 1 at all. But, from the posts that we saw about how to do a design document, and what belongs in a design document, may I suggest that next year you provide a "Working Template". This should be a simple document that explains what belongs inside of it, and gives a basic layout for someone to follow. Developers are hardly ever the person creating the Design Documents, and if it were not for me doing them every day at work, I would have found it difficult as well.

Giving a template and an example is always a good idea when it comes to documentation. I wouldn't lock the stage to the template provided, but note some place what parts of the template (from an information standpoint) are mandatory. This way, entrants know exactly what they need to write about, and it will aid in the discovery phase of the project. It might even point out some questions that the entrants didn't know that they had :).

PGD Support:
Ok, so far this years compo is way superior then last years :). We haven't had a site hack, or anything (WOOPIE). Still, we have seen quite a few feature requests out of the site that existed last year (don't run away screaming WILL). Some are quite valid, and make our lives easier. To re-cap here is the list I've seen:

* Add a compo button to the main navigation
* Combine the logins some how
* Add a listing of files uploaded and what stage they were uploaded to
* Some place, give an idea of how much space of the available 20Mb we have used :)
* Lost password reminder
* Forgot my email by team name reminder
* A separate area on the forums just for contest entries.

Fellow Competitors:
Good luck to everyone, this year is looking awesome so far. We have more entrants showing their work already, and we are working together in many cases. Can't wait to start seeing playable versions, movies, screen shots, additional documentation. I'm amazed to see just how many different ideas there are this year compared to other years.

Ok, now everyone can tell me to STFU :)

[Huehnerschaender]

We have more entrants showing their work already, and we are working together in many cases.

This is why I like this compo so much. We are opponents, no question. But if one has a question, he will get help from other competitors. Nearly no one cares about giving tips and additional ideas, even if this gives advantage to the opponent.

Winning is not all here... the community rules the compo!

And just a little thought of myself ontopic:

Personally I would like detailed comments in further stages. Stage one is just a "giveaway" of 60 points to everyone who registered in time. It's not the Design Document which makes the points here when you take a look at the requirements: Name (even WIP is allowed), genre (which are presented detailed on the compo page) and supported platforms. In fact you only need to write down 4 phrases to make the 60 points:
- ProjectX
- Jump&Run
- Strategy
- Windows

That's what I see as required when I read through the stage goals... Not very much for 60 points :) So I don't care about short comments in this stage... I am happy about the fast scoring and that I now can see which of the registered team really want to compete (the ones which took the time to send in a doc). So I have 26 "opponents" to compete with.

Greetings,
Dirk

[Sascha Willems]

Thanks for the feedback on our judging jdarling. Note that I would also have commented on the content of the game design, including wether I liked it or what I think could be changed/made better, but for stage 1 we should only judge wether the documents contained everything needed for that stage.
That's why you won't find anything related to the game design itself in our comments and comments for the next stages will much likely be more detailled.

And H?ºhnersch?§nder : Will already noted it somewhere around here : Stage 1 was either 0 or 20 points. But then again having to compare the design documents to each other would have taken a lot of time and I already needed 2 hours to just read through the docs and write the comments you see now. I think when having to compare them all it would have taken me a whol day to do in order to make it right.

But as you can see from the scoring the stage scores only make up 600 of 3600 points so the final judging of your game (and therefore game design) will result in a max. of 3000 points.

[Clootie]

jdarling
First, thanks for your feedback. Still I felt your words little unfair to me, as I've provided comments where I felt they where required to keep team on right course. And your design doc is really good and after rereading it once more now ( I assure you that this was not second time :) ) - I still have nothing to add to mine original comment. Well, maybe if we had 2-3 hours per each team to study documentation,.. but in this case - scores will be posted only weeks after a deadline. Seems this will happen anyway for next stages, when judges will have to play each game from start to end (so don't forget about embedding cheat/debug codes)!

[IlovePascal]

I personally agree with jdarling's critics (goods and bad), and Dirk's comment about more detailed stage goals as we go along. I believe a good idea would be to have a thread for each stage, where we, 'competitors', can get certain points clarified, so that there is no ambiguity.

I add my thanks to the judges for their time, and good luck to all the 'fellow competitors' !!! :thumbup:

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Hi Jeremy,

Many thanks for the feedback.

From my personal perspective, its a bit daunting being a judge if I'm honest. This is my first time out as a judge and I will totally admit I have quite a bit to learn (I'm sure that WILL is already dreading my next ICQ message ;-)).

Having competed last year I can appreciate your comments about the level of feedback. I tried to strike a balance between reading, commenting (where absolutely needed), scoring and getting things done quickly so you guys weren't hanging around for scores.

Anyhow, fortunately, for you guys at least, I'm currently jobless so I've got a bit of free time right now... I've just finished re-reading everyones documents and I've provided more detailed feedback (http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/viewtopic.php?p=30928#30928). I hope this is a little closer to what you would like as a competitor for this stage of the competition :-)

[jdarling]

AoD, thanks greatly for your added effort. I honestly wasn't trying to put anyone down or get anyone to go above and beyond. Just trying to help out for next years compo. Maybe set some goals on both sides of the fence :).

Its late, and I'll have to read most of your feedback tomorrow, but from what I've read thus far sounds great :).

Again, thanks to all of the judges, w/o you guys/gals there wouldn't be a compo :)

[LP]

After thinking on entering the compo (even considering that we've finished a complete mid-term game in few days! ;) This is crazy!), I decided not to because of stage overhead, judges opening their own threads and participants opening their own threads.

I didn't enter because judges opening their own threads for questions felt like an ass-licking (judges are to judge (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/judge), not give excuses (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/excuse) or explain (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/explain) themselves), and a joke compo (flood of new threads "multiplexity: my own entry!").

Sorry for being rude, I'm known to be harsh and I've been a judge, so... :P

[cairnswm]

and a joke compo (flood of new threads "multiplexity: my own entry!").

Every Compo I enter I make a thread to tell everyone what I'm doing. I started the list of threads and I dont think there is any Joke in it. Maybe I consider it worthwhile for others to see what I am working on and get some input from everyone as well.

[Huehnerschaender]

Hi Yuriy :)

I agree with you that what is going on at the PGD annual is not the common way. But exactly this is what I like so much.

My main goal is not winning by showing a stunning, surprising entry in the end, which presumed I sat in my 4 walls for months, talking to no one.

I like to have a goal. I want to complete the game and see if I can make better than others. And of course I like the way people give and get feedback here. I also like to give other people ideas and tips if I can.
Just because I would like to see good games coming out of the compo.

See, especially in the first phases, the judges will decide if our idea fits with the genres we picked. Some of the entrants already got feedback that they have to change their concept to get the points. Imagine this would not be told here... The people would program for several months, putting their energy into the game and finally the judges would say: "Sorry, your entry does not fit the rules, because you can only buy things, but not sell them".

Additionally I want to say, that not only the experienced are competing here. There are newbies, who want and need help. and if someone decides not to show his progress, no one blames him for that... it's the decision of the entrants.

Regarding the questions to the judges: I totally agree, that judges decide and thats it. No one should try to convince them nor should they let themselves be convinced by entrants. A decision is a decision. If they are not clear, they have WILL and savage to ask.
But right now I haven't seen those things... (did I overread something?)
Those threads are for general questions like the forbidden symbols in germany, the hardware of Christina, etc (lowest judge specs, so it should be legal to ask things about the hardware). And of course, if I get 0 points for something, I need a possibility to ask, why I didn't get them if this is not stated in the comments. No convincing, no manipulating, just asking questions to make things clear.

And @Christina: Thanks for putting in the addtitional info.

Greetings,
Dirk

[Eric]

I tend to agree with Huehnerschaender, this competition is more a fun event to me. As far as blind competition against cut-throat competitors goes, I can get enough of that @work - and reward-wise, there is no doubt which is going to pay my bills 8)

Seeing the flourishing of "blogs" this year, maybe this posting of progress and feedback should be made an "official" part of next year's competition? This would be a double-edged sword however, seeing others's progress can be just as much of a stimulation to give your best, as it can be a trigger for "give up" as certainty bears down you won't catchup...


The most difficult thing last year was finding out what we as entrants were doing wrong. Personally, I didn't have anyone that I could bounce my game idea or work against. As the compo progressed I started to find people, but initially I relied almost completely on the judges comments.

Judges giving info can be a difficult balancing act, especially when as a judge, you know the technology well enough to pinpoint a bug that has been bothering an entry for several stages. Giving small hints can be okay, but anything detailed is problematic.
As for gameplay and game mechanics, you shouldn't rely on judges IMO, and nor should judges provide much beyond which goal is achieved missed, as anything beyond those could be easily construed as favoritism or give impression of partiality... Besides, external input can often have more of a diverting effect on your work than anything else. :wink:

[jasonf]

I'm all for writing about my progress in the competition, it's hardly going to make me win the compo on its own is it?. in fact, if I don't pull my finger out and get some work done, I'm going to look like a prize pratt for making empty promises..

If a Judge, or anyone else gives me positive feedback or negative, then it's up to me to decide whether I agree with them or not. The fact of the matter is, anyone on the site can give feedback.. and it's up to the developer to decide whether it's help or hinderance.

As far as I see it, when a judge gives comments on a stage, that lets me know what they think about my progress. So naturally, I want positive feedback. I don't want to get to the end of the competition and only then find out that they've hated my game from day 1. That would put me off entering next year.

If I'm not working as hard as the others, not making as much progress as the others, not achieving my design goals, I want to know about it.

I can see everyone's comments so I can see how I'm doing compared to everyone else.
This transparency rules out any favouratism. I don't even think we should be thinking about this sort of thing anyway.. we're a pretty close community and it makes me sad to hear suggestions of creeping, ass kissing. Judges are community members too, they can read the forums and blogs, the only way to ensure that no-one is swayed towards a favourite is for everyone to work in secret, I don't want that at all. We have to have faith at the end that they are impartial.

Lets remember what this competition is all about. Showing the world what can be done by Pascal, Showing everyone that C is not the only language. Proving beyond a doubt that some of the best ideas happen outside of a major games company and most importantly of all, having a laugh with your mates and making something cool. 8)

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Hi Lifepower,

I'm quessing that this is the comment you think means I'm open to persuasion...



If you feel I've been unjust with my comments about genres, then lets discuss it. But if we can't decide (or you can't convince me), WILL and Savage can have the final word since they are in charge of the competition. So if we can't reach a satisfactory conclusion, we can ask them to make the final decision.


And to a point I am.... if a team submits an entry and it quite clearly achieves their chosen genres (even if I thought after reading their documentation it wouldn't), I will be persuaded.... if they feel the need to clarify the situation now, before the next deadline, they get that opportunity to ask me why, and provide additional information that could clarify their genre choices or they can speak to WILL or Savage and get the genre choice issues resolved that way.

Unfortunately, the fact is that the concept of a genre is pretty fluid. As I said in my additional comments post, the comments about genres are 'my' thoughts which have been based on three key things.... the competition genre list (which doesn't encapsulate every possible genre... a prime example is 'Breakout'), the Wikipedia genre list which was used as the basis for the competition list and the documentation provided by the teams.

In some cases, the genres were clear... in others (through lack of documentation, explanation or as in the case of simulation, a lack of perceived depth) they weren't or they would have fitted better into another genre. Since supporting multiple genres is a requirement for some of the stage goals, I don't think it is unreasonable given the fluidity of the concept for that part of the design/game to be open to discussion/clarification with the judges (especially since there are three of us and whilst I may consider something to be an Action-Adventure, Clootie may consider it to be Action and Sascha may consider it to be Adventure).

With regards to being able to ask the judges questions, this happened during last years competition, its just that this year its a bit more organised because we (as judges) created the threads so you guys know where to ask questions directed at us... it also make the whole process more transparent. As for the blogs situation, I think that is much better than last year where we all ended up stuffing screenies etc. into a single thread which became a nightmare to follow.

[jdarling]

After thinking on entering the compo (even considering that we've finished a complete mid-term game in few days! ;) This is crazy!), I decided not to because of stage overhead, judges opening their own threads and participants opening their own threads.

Sorry for being rude, I'm known to be harsh and I've been a judge, so... :P

I would call it more blunt then rude.

Though, I think that the way the compo is run is a nice change of pace. Judges having an open enough mind to answer questions make the compo interesting, and leads to better entries. Sure, in a high level compo judges SHOULD be separated completely from the entrants. This isn't a high level compo, I didn't pay money to enter, its not by invitation only, and in the end there really arn't any big prizes.

Of course, in a large compo, the judges comments would be extensive and include information on how an entry failed/succeeded. It would be held in a VERY controlled environment (something that doesn't exist here), and the rules would be EXTREMELY tight. Fact of the matter is, this compo is more of an entry point then a top player :).

Entrants starting threads; This isn't mandatory. It's just us showing off and/or asking for feedback. I haven't seen a single entry like mine, and unlike last years compo, very few entries are like one another. My first thought fits this more then anything. In a large compo with something major to gain, this would be a bad idea. Good thing that the top prize is just an entry into IGF, and one years worth of bragging rights (Most of us could afford to put our game into IGF in the first place, after all its only ~$100 US).

Just my two cents.

[Huehnerschaender]

Whilst Mr. Darling compares competitions, I'd like to mention that last year I took part in the IGF competition. A single eMail after months was the ONLY thing I ever heard from judges, initiants or whatever. I got a small eMail which just says "sorry, you have well done but you aren't within finalists." after the 100$ were paid (fortunately I did not pay it myself). Thats it.

Not much of fun competing there...

I like it much more like it is here..

[jdarling]

Whilst Mr. Darling compares competitions, I'd like to mention that last year I took part in the IGF competition. A single eMail after months was the ONLY thing I ever heard from judges, initiants or whatever. I got a small eMail which just says "sorry, you have well done but you aren't within finalists." after the 100$ were paid (fortunately I did not pay it myself). Thats it.

Not much of fun competing there...

I like it much more like it is here..

Mr Darling??? Looks around, nope, don't see my father here anywhere.

Your statement is exactly my point, PGD isn't IGF. PGD is for fun, and I like the way its handled as well :). After going through the Omni's, IGF, and MANY other competitions through the year, its nice to have PGD to look forward to. A laid back compo that people actually want to help each other out with :)

[LP]

@ cairnswm & jdarling:

I guess this has become a habit of quoting one phrase out of what a person said and answering to that phrase (no surprise you didn't quote linked parts). I'm sure everyone got their reasons why they are doing what they are doing and that they are happy of doing so, but let's now make this another "kill the witch" series of posts. Oh, and don't quote just one phrase, either quote the whole post (it's pretty small) or don't quote at all - there are no many lifepowers out there. ;)

To everybody else:

In my post I said reasons why I didn't enter and if you don't like them or feel my impressions were wrong... well, I might not be the only one getting the wrong impression. :P

Also, seriously, participants giving feedback to judges - this IS something new! :D

Just another point to think about: in real life you won't get too much feedback from people who did not buy your game. In this case, they are the judge, you are participant. If you give them feedback that what they did was wrong - well, they won't buy your title anyway. :D In fact, in real life you will never be sure why a product didn't sell, you can theoretize and you can ask beta teams to give their feedback, but this is as far as you will get. This is why I think this entire thing with judges giving justifications and participants judging the judges looks like fiction.

[Huehnerschaender]

Your father has children, and you have children, too.... so both of you is "Mr Darling" :)

[Huehnerschaender]

I don't think that the participants here want to tell the judges how to do their job. In my opinion the suggestions which are made here are mainly directed to the competition initiants, which get information about the organisation of the competition. This way it becomes a more "professional look" with special summary pages, blog threads, etc. It's possible to track the competition now, which it was not before. So the only thing I saw here right now which was directed to the judges was to give enough information about their decisions, so one can understand what he is doing wrong and can make it better in further stages. I guess this is a point which makes this compo unequal to others, too. The stages. If you got few or no points in an early stage, you just need to know why. Otherwise you can quit the whole thing, because you have no chance to correct things you made wrong in the beginning.

In other compos there is a single deadline, when you have to be finished... sure, it makes no sense in that case to track a competition or discuss any judgements...

And Yuriy: I hope you don't feel offended here :) You know that I am one of the last with such an intention...