Delphi for PHP released

[chronozphere]

A friend of mine found this news item (http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/03/28/0314222.shtml) on slashdot.org and i think this might be worth a news post ;)



"Codegear has just released version 1.0 of Delphi for PHP, a RAD development environment (running on Windows) that produces standard PHP code. It features a large set of built-in components, including ones that use AJAX for database access; and Codegear is encouraging users to develop their own components. The framework, VCL for PHP, is open source, and documentation follows the PHP model. Initial database connectivity is for MySQL and Interbase (Codegear's commercial database that spawned the open-source Firebird), but more are promised."


<strike>Although, this hasn't much to do with games, it's good news for us, pascal programmers, because we don't need to learn PHP.
However, a little bit PHP know-how can be usefull when debugging. </strike>:)

[savage]

Delphi for PHP just means a RAD IDE for PHP. You still need to know PHP to make anything usefull with it. The problem is that CodeGear has not rebranded Delphi yet again :(. Delphi is no longer the Object Pascal language, but is now the IDE technology, which just causes more confusion amongst the development community. The should have called it Turbo PHP or similar.

Anyway you can get a 1 day trail version ( yes you read that correctly 1 day ) from http://www.codegear.com/Downloads/TrialandFreeVersions/Delphi/DelphiforPHP/tabid/250/Default.aspx

[pstudio]

How can you test an IDE on one single day? It would at least take an week to see if you can work with the IDE. I'm actually interested in this product, but I'm not gonna bother trying it if it's only on for day. Codegear practically forces me to spend 200 euros to see if the IDE really is something that I can use. Well that's not going to happen.
And it's a shame they call it Delphi for PHP. In my world Delphi is Object Pascal and nothing else.

[chronozphere]

Delphi for PHP just means a RAD IDE for PHP. You still need to know PHP to make anything usefull with it.


Oops :oops: .... That's why the word "pascal" was never mentioned on the page. firstly i thought it was some kind of "pascal to PHP" compiler but after all, that doesn't make ANY sense. :lol:

But the post doesn't seem to be relevant anymore, because it's a non-pascal product :(

[Robert Kosek]

Oh, yay, a paid-for IDE for PHP. Yay. *cough* You know, like, it's going to replace things like Dev-PHP (http://sourceforge.net/projects/devphp/) (made with Delphi). Brilliant move CodeGear. :roll: Paid Versus Free ... what makes them think they can even fight Dreamweaver's reputation, or Eclipse? Corporate suicide as far as I'm concerned. :?

[bigsofty]

Do not underestimate the power of this product, a quick look a the VCLs that are already available confirms this...

[AthenaOfDelphi]

I do think people are failing to see past the price tag... from a commercial point of view $299 for a PHP IDE with this kind of functionality isn't so bad in my opinion.

Having watched the vid demo where the guy creates a data grid with update functionality in (if you take out the talking and explanation) I would say less than 30 seconds, its an amazingly powerful tool.

If you are developing PHP commercially, its highly likely you could save the purchase price on your first project.

[Robert Kosek]

I have tried to listen to the same video, but the guy's voice gets on my nerves terribly and I had to kill the window.


Do not underestimate the power of this product, a quick look a the VCLs that are already available confirms this...Underestimation isn't what I'm doing. I am questioning the logic of CodeGear. And in my opinion, wondering what made them decide to do this. For web applications I am not fond of the VCL, nor do I want it. Call me a notepad purist if you are so inclined.

Yes, the feature set is powerful. And while I cannot do the same things they can in a similar amount of time with just my text editor, I can ensure it is up to quality. Considering the past, I don't consider CodeGear/Borland synonymous with quality so I take everything they do with a grain of salt. Delphi I've proven, Delphi for PHP I haven't. And at this point, bleeding edge means bleeding customers.

As someone in the industry who uses PHP, yes I work as a web developer, I am not very impressed. I don't need or want VCL style designing of my forms. In fact, it puts too much focus upon forms. I develop all my code to output XHTML 1.1 Strict doctype, and I can't even be certain just how well their VCL stuff validates. Break validation and it not only looks wrong, but makes problems for screenreaders and browsers.

Frankly, I don't yet trust it.

[JernejL]

After giving it a try, i'm giving this grade 5 / 10, it comes with no demos, there is not even a slightiest trace of code insight or code completition, form editor controls take few seconds to load new controls when created, form designer controls have no size grips (WTF), php vcl help is absolutely most basic thing i ever saw, see example on listbox.items:


VCL for PHP Reference

ListBox.getItems Method
ListBox Class | ListBox Members | ListBox Methods
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Related Information
ListBox Class, ListBox Members, ListBox Methods
Group
ListBox Methods

Description
This is getItems, a member of class ListBox.

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there is not a trace of any kind on how to add a item to a listbox?

okay, i could forgive them this for their first release, i'm not a php smartass to know how to even code with objects in php properly, it looks overall as a good but overpriced product, it doesn't even generate bad html code (altrough everything is positioned with position: absolute method.)

[Robert Kosek]

Ugh. That's not good. I'm no amazing PHP programmer either, but what I know I have down cold.

"Position: Absolute" is bad except where you absolutely want it, as that can break layouts and designs. In fact, in my latest project I haven't even used it once.

I could forgive them for that and poor help, but no code insight or code completion I cannot. I can get that in ConTEXT which I use for development myself, and it's completely free as well. I can code my whole standard database unit and drop that sucker in as a template to ConTEXT, and never have to think about it again.

For $300 something that doesn't even compete with stuff I can get for free is highway robbery. Which is what I was concerned about anyway.

[jasonf]

I think I'm missing something, why would anyone release a PHP Editor which isn't as complete as some of the cheap/free ones? Unless it does other things...

I used PHP Designer for some work I was doing at home a few months ago, I found it to be a great piece of software. I think sometimes, in an effort to make it easier to throw up forms, the IDE's encourage bad practice. PHP Designer didn't.

http://www.mpsoftware.dk/products.php


Although, to be honest, I use Visual Studio.net at work for the Web stuff I do from time to time... and it is nice :oops: although it does promote far too many microsoftisms (2003 version) but it does have good support for stylesheets when designing the pages. But it's ASP.net only

[Legolas]

I'm almost sure that something similar could be done with lazarus. IIRC, some months ago I read on lazarus forum a thread about that

[WILL]

Well once the Object Pascal disappointment wears off, it's really quite an amazing idea...

Web scripting and testing (even with Dreamweaver) is in a terrible state, even after over 10 years of technical evolution. Not so much with regards to the source code editing it's self, but the debugging and testing process.

Lets face it... there isn't really a good debugger for PHP apps out there. (or at least it is unknown to me.) Which makes finding and doing the debugging yourself a royal pain.

I don't know the exact make-up of Delphi for PHP, but if they plan on adding a debugger, I'd seriously consider owning a copy myself. Well I guess I'll have to give this demo a try and see for myself.

[Robert Kosek]

The only PHP Debugger in existence is PHP itself. You cannot execute PHP without PHP installed, which would require Apache. So the debugger just does what all the others does: run a script in debug mode. Or perhaps with a special command line variable that tells PHP to just return debugging information.


Web scripting and testing (even with Dreamweaver) is in a terrible state, even after over 10 years of technical evolution. Not so much with regards to the source code editing it's self, but the debugging and testing process. False. FireBug, a free plugin for FireFox, lets me debug JavaScript and XHTML/CSS in realtime. In fact, I write my PHP code to echo hidden debugging blocks of code that only appear in certain instances, like when either a debug or admin account is logged in. At which point, I have both sides covered by PHP, my own debugging stuff, and FireBug. Terrible state? I wrote a whole configuration package for a software module in 1 month! I wasn't even sure I could do it from the start, but I did.

So... $300 for nothing new, and I'm serious when I say it's nothing new, is not a good thing. It's a bad thing. I honestly don't like ASP, but VS is fairly good. Only I notice silly bugs and slowdowns that I know are related to ASP (like logon delays, and checking sessions).

Trust me, I'm fighting with this stuff right now. We're working with an "embedded" server now, and our interface is terribly coded in C. I can't fix that, but I can certainly tell my employer that their current track is self-destructive. And when it is Ansi-C, not even C++, that's doing what we're doing (NDA, sorry) it is a mess and is WORSE to debug than PHP.

[JernejL]

I don't know the exact make-up of Delphi for PHP, but if they plan on adding a debugger, I'd seriously consider owning a copy myself. Well I guess I'll have to give this demo a try and see for myself.

it does have a debugger..

[savage]

Btw, they seem to have extended the trail period from 1 day to 14 days now.

[technomage]

Dom and I saw the full version of Delphi for PHP in action today. With Code Insight, Completion and Integrated Debugging (breakpoints , watches etc) all there and a very impressive demo on the use of the vcl4php.

I wouldn't right this product off, remember many years ago someone released a product with would allow you to develop compiled windows applications rapidly, allot of people back then were saying "why would I do that, I can't trust the code it's using, I can use the Window API directly and do it myself!", look what happened. :)

The vcl4php is open source, so if you want it to be XHTML 1.1 compliant or what ever get involved. open sourcing the vcl4php is a great move.

CodeGear have done a good thing here, and with the Rudy on the Rail IDE following later this year, it's only going to get better. :D

[WILL]

I'm actually quite happy about this coming out. It's one of the really smart non-Pascal things that CodeGear has done since they took over.

I've been working with PHP for quite some time now and I have to tell ya. The way it's done now gives me terrible flashbacks to my old TP7 days. :P In fact TP7 was much farther along than this in some respects. :lol: It had a proper debugger.

Delphi for PHP will likely be a piece of software that I'll be adding to my library. I just hope that a Linux version will be soon to follow in the coming years as I really don't plan on sticking with Windows for very long.

[savage]

I also enjoyed the Delphi for PHP demo, though what they showed was fairly simplistic, I still thought it has great potential! Definitely a product to watch and one I am considering getting for my PHP development.

[jdarling]

Downloaded it and tried it out. Not impressed. Loading EC's default engine crashes Delphi for PHP in about 1/3 of a second :). Created a new project, dropped a few components on and linked it up to the database. Everything ran fine. Attempted to hook the generated PHP to my style sheets, nothing but a pain. Gave up.

I do hope that this goes someplace though, even though I don't think I'll ever go back to Delphi, I would consider Delphi for PHP for web development when it gets a bit more robust and stable.