10th dimension

[pstudio]

If you're interested in science or just want to learn a bit about dimensions this flash movie is a must.

10th Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php)

It does get a bit complicated after the 4th dimension, but it's all explained in an easy way.

[jasonf]

Didn't Savage post something about this a few months ago? I still have the headache from trying to understand it :lol:

[Angelo]

Hmm this is indeed very interesting...

Ive noticed that the dimensions repeats itselves with other aspects.

0. A point
1. A line (not visible, its a pure mathematical line)
2. Well you could also see this as a line, but its visible now.
3. The world we are living in.
4. The Time.
5. The Time but now combined with the second dimension.
6. Time + third dimension
7. infinity, all posible time lines.
8. Different infinities
9. That is still unclear to me...
10. Inifinity combined with 0 dimension...

Dimension 0-3 is place.
4-6 (ok, maybe 7 too) is time.
7-10 is inifity, which is hard to imagine.

Would there be more than 10 dimensions...
I thought my mathematical teacher told me there are infinity dimensions, which is the hardest to understand...


Dont kill me for the last thing I said... Im not certain if he said that, but if I remember it well, it should be right what Ive told.

[Angelo]

Question for everyone...

Person A is travelling with a spaceship faster then light, which is exactly 299.792.458 metres per second (yes quite fast).
Another person, person B will be living on earth for 70 years *70 "earthyears" *.
Person A comes back to earth after "70 earthyears".

What will be the difference between person A and person B ?

Oh btw, this is pure theoretical...
So you may leave all kind of factors behind, such as the medium person A is travelling through and Cerenkov radiation...

Besides speed isnt infinity, the max speed is the speed of light in vacum (which is 299.792.458 metres per second).
But, it is possible that you travel quicker than light through a medium, it would still be to quick for human beings tho.

Sorry that it looks like Im typing in MSN language, but my keyboard isnt functioning as it should do.

[jasonf]

Person A would slap person B for being a "Lying Git!" as nothing can go faster than the speed of light.. He went merely light speed and there's no need to exaggerate.

Person B would then shrug it off an go to a night club and have a bloody great time,
whereas person A would go to bed with a hot coco after collecting his pension from the post office and soil himself in his sleep.

[Angelo]

nothing can go faster than the speed of light

Hmm, such statements are very dangerous...

Since you did not specify the medium the light is going through.

Can anything go faster than the speed of light?
Yes, it is possible, although it can not be done in vacum.
But, you CAN travel quicker than the speed of light in a medium.

You got a funny answer but its all wrong :P

[WILL]

Actually photons can travel faster than the speed of light. And no I've not 'seen' it myself. ;)

However unfortunately or so the problem goes, it's the only thing that has been discovered to do thus.

And yes, Dom posted this very same thing some months ago. Very, very mind boggling stuff. :P

[Setharian]

Can anything go faster than the speed of light?
Yes, it is possible, although it can not be done in vacum.
But, you CAN travel quicker than the speed of light in a medium.
so far no medium allows the light to travel faster than in vacum :)

[jasonf]

Actually, there is something faster than the speed of light...

The speed of dark. 'cos even though light is very fast, Dark is always there before it.


As for the medium the light is travelling though, it was implied that there was a spaceship therefore, the medium would be space.. where very little gets in the way of the light to slow it down..

My statement "Nothing can go faster than the speed of light" while not technically accurate from a pedantic point of view, given that scientists have managed to slow down light, there were no other criteria specified so by their absence, my statement was accurate. If the question implied additional mediums or asked if light was possible to be overtaken in a race, then my answer would be wholly inaccurate as I would have failed to address the medium it was travelling though. As this was not done, it should be assumed that my statement was regarding light in a vacum.

I've got a headache now and I'm going to have a lie down :lol:

[Angelo]

Ah I think this kind of discussions are fun...

Except that I will not sleep tonight anymore :(
Its a problem that I have, not sure what it is. If I focus on 1 thing, I can not stop focussing on it...

@Will:

photons do not travel faster than the speed of light.
Actually photons are the carriers of all wavelengths including visible light.
Those things are kinda weird, their mass is 0.
And in vacum they travel at the speed of light (no wonder, since they are the carriers of it)...

[WILL]

It's 10th dimension sickness. It happens when you pass the threshold. :P

[Angelo]

Gheghe, you have any cure for it? :P

Oh I missed jasons post.
I think you have read my post when I just posted it, I have edited after a few minutes, because I knew something was missing.

Hmm about your dark thing... Darkness isnt something, its nothing.
Light are lil photons which IS something, while as I said before darkness isnt.
So darkness cant be quicker then light since it is nothing...

And as for what you were saying about the spaceship, in my edited post Ive said it doesnt matter what medium it is, you may leave it all behind.

Im wondering if anyone knows the answer on my question?

Let me give a hint, it has something to do with time...

What would travelling faster than light mean?

[jasonf]

Actually, there is one thing which travels faster than light... Corporate Blame.. Not only does it travel faster than light, it also does it sideways making it hard to see until it's too late :lol:

[Angelo]

Sorry, but I have no clue what Corporate Blame is...

It might be my english but I really have no idea :P

[jasonf]

Didn't Einstein say something about this?.. I believe he mentioned some odd theory about this, something to do with his relatives :lol:

Time slows down as you reach the speed of light so that if two people of the same age were in the experiment, one went off in a spaceship at the speed of light then when he returned 70 yrs later, the person in the space ship would have only aged during the time he was speeding up and slowing down making him much younger than the person he left behind. If the accelleration and decelleration process was instantanious, then the person in the spaceship would be 70yrs younger than the person on Earth.


something like that...

I'm not sure that theory has been proven though, although his theory about gravity also travelling at the speed of light has been proven.

[Angelo]

YES!!!

Wow, you are the first one that knows the answer on my question!

This is what time-travelling is/was about...

I think nowadays scientists are thinking time-travelling is possible by accesing the fourth dimenson, but dont hit me on that one!
Since Im not certain about it.
About this... I wouldnt know how to enter another dimension... its very odd isnt it?
Since what we can see is "place" or however you want to describe it.
So, if we would be able to get in any other dimension, whenever and however... Would we still be we?
Since only dimension 0-3 is place and dimension 4 and up is time and infinity which cannot be seen.


Darn, I hate you pstudio! I can not stop thinking about it.....

[WILL]

Gheghe, you have any cure for it? :P

Yeah, but it involves a gerbil, a 2L bottle of pop, 3 1/2 teaspoons of antimatter, some aspirin and a dinosaur. Almost any dinosaur will do, but the bigger the better. It'll clear you right up. ;)

[pstudio]

YES!!!

Wow, you are the first one that knows the answer on my question!

This is what time-travelling is/was about...

I think nowadays scientists are thinking time-travelling is possible by accesing the fourth dimenson, but dont hit me on that one!
Since Im not certain about it.
About this... I wouldnt know how to enter another dimension... its very odd isnt it?
Since what we can see is "place" or however you want to describe it.
So, if we would be able to get in any other dimension, whenever and however... Would we still be we?
Since only dimension 0-3 is place and dimension 4 and up is time and infinity which cannot be seen.


Darn, I hate you pstudio! I can not stop thinking about it.....
He He :lol: dont blame me. I just saw the link on an other forum and thought it was interesting.

About time travelling. As far as I know, sciencetists dont belive that actual time travelling is possible (moving faster than light), but that it may be possible to make a dimension shift to a parallel world. Now if that other dimension would be a point in the 4th or 5th dimension I have no idea about. I am confused :?

[Bijo]

Fascinating. And well-explained too, albeit a bit fast. I'll have to look again when I have time for I missed some parts.


Regarding Time, there was a... time when I was discussing it with some people, and one of the statements was as follows: Time does not truly exist, except as a concept. (I do not totally recall all of it but I'll have a go at it.)

The explanation was that Time is no physical thing, just an idea, a sense we have, therefore there is no true past nor a future, and Time does not truly flow or move. We only live in the present. There is no "timeline" as if we flow with it, simply because it's not there. It is merely a mental aide to support us.

Thus if the statement 'Time does not exist' returns true, then it should be that there is no 4th dimension... but, wait... arrgh! Well, you know what I mean :D


Just think of it and disconnect the concept of Time if possible.

[pstudio]

The reason why people say that time does not exist is because they are only in three dimensions. They cannot see the four dimension like it was explained in the movie. Time is just a word trying to descripe and measure the fourth dimension.

Donnot know if my point is clear :?

[jasonf]

The problem with time travel is that even if it was possible to revisit past events, i.e. move back again along the 4th dimension, it would be impossible to change anything because all of the atoms, electrical charges and other sub-atomic particles which have moved, interacted, reacted and so on would be back in their original positions with their original momentums and charges, once the play button was pressed on the 4th dimension once again, all of the atoms, charges and sub-atomic particles would resume their merry dance and end up exactly where they were at the moment you travelled back in time, in effect, going back in time wouldn't change anything because you can't bend the 4th dimension like a train track, you can only imagine replaying a past event.. although it would happen exactly the same as before..

It would like trying to bend up so it becomes down...impossible, up is up. (Up being an absolute direction not a direction relative to a body, in the same way that Forward and North are completely different.. if you were to continue absolutely forward, you would eventually gain altitude and end up in space.. North on the other hand is relative to the Earth and can become South if you continue far enough)

[savage]

Didn't Savage post something about this a few months ago? I still have the headache from trying to understand it :lol:
Yes I did :).

[savage]

So darkness cant be quicker then light since it is nothing...

It is nothing we can measure at the moment. But maybe in the future we will, but they can probably already measure it in one of the other dimensions!

[JSoftware]

Uh now physics isn't my favorite class but I seem to recall that the teacher said something about speed of light once(I was playing Alpha Centauri so I didn't hear it all).

When person 1 approaches the speed of light for an external observer, person 2, person 1 would approach the speed of light at a slower rate than person 2 percieve it. So when person 1 actually reaches a velocity of the speed of light person 2 will percieve it as a speed higher than light.

I can't remember the details but I think that was it :P

[WILL]

You know in another reality darkness and vacuum is essential to life and the darkness is produced by energy all else is shrouded in light. ;)

[Angelo]

You know in another reality darkness and vacuum is essential to life and the darkness is produced by energy all else is shrouded in light. ;)

Hmm, WILL, I still think you are too much in the game/hollywood scene.

Physics is my favorite :D

@savage, you might be right about that one. So let me correct my statement, in these days darkness is nothing.

@jason, I trully have to agree with that. Its not that I am believing this time-travelling thing, I'm just trying to put some things on a row (or however you say it in english, its a dutch statement, so hard to translate!)

And at least (sorry), Bijo. There is no proof for that, neither there is for that time does exist.

[DarknessX]

So darkness cant be quicker then light since it is nothing...

It is nothing we can measure at the moment. But maybe in the future we will, but they can probably already measure it in one of the other dimensions!

Or might it just be that darkness is actually something... Maybe it is the lack of something? It still is something... Because if it was nothing, you could not describe it, move in it, see through it, or in any other way, interact with it. Space, in a complete vaccuum, is SOMETHING. But if you say darkness is nothing, does that not technically mean space is nothing?

In case you haven't found out yet, I'm a very philosophical person :D

[Angelo]

Hmm Im more a scientific person :P

I believe that darkness is nothing.
It is the result of nothing, and it is black because if we close our eyes we see black...
SO nothing should be black.


But if you say darkness is nothing, does that not technically mean space is nothing?
Watch out! Here you are comparing total different things.
Space is not equivalent with darkness.
There is a hell of alot in space which we can not see.
But that doesnt mean there is darkness/nothing...

[jasonf]

Apart from a small body of matter in the universe, which was the result of the big bang, we can assume that nothing is infinite... i.e.. you will get to a point after travelling very fast to the edge of the expanded universe.. infinite nothingness lies beyond..

So as nothing is infinite and light has a finite speed, it is entirely true that Nothing is in fact faster than light.



The biggest issue I think of when it comes to considering travel at speeds comparible with light is gravity and the effects of gravity.

Here's my theory...

If you can apply extreme gravitational forces, like those near the event horizon of a black hole (space and gravity have been proven to be related according to Einstein), then you would be able to travel through compressed space using conventional rockets (assuming that if you travel through compressed space you don't need power relative to the amount of compression). However, there is a chance that by compressing space at a particular point, you would in fact destroy everything within influence of the gravitational effect.. you'd certainly destabilise the fragile orbits of the solar systems within the area of influence of the grav jump, dragging everything to the point of the compressed space, untill you'd passed through and stopped the effect. Unless there was a way to apply stabilising forces outside of the area of infuence until the gravity jump was complete... even so, if this was possible, it would involve a tunnel of gates to apply an anti-force which would appear to come together at the point of jumping and even then, the maximum possible speed would be the speed of light.

This type of travel would be nearly impossible and far too dangerous to try for real as the reverse gravitational field needed to prevent complete gravitational collapse would need to be so efficient that the slightest anomaly would mean that continued use would yield noticable results to orbits of objects nearby.. possibly far away too... plus the power required would be so gigantic that it would be impossible to harness.

But this is my understanding of the universe, and more than likely wrong.

[WILL]

Well actually becoming serious for a post here.

It has been proven that there are forces and sources of energy that cannot be seen, so therefore it can be assumed that the fact that you can see it has nothing to do with it's speed. ie. Can you hear a sonic jet flying by?

Another famous theory is that of Sir Issac Newton in which a change in force requires an equal and opposite force. Which somewhere along the lines means that for converted matter to be corrupted or destabilized you'd have to run into something. A self contained segment of space that has been converted into a form or energy that could possibly travel at the speed of light would also need to be sifted into some sort of 'phase' to use a likely sci-fi term so that it would not collide with anything along the way. :D

[jasonf]

Converting matter into energy is something which has been thought about for a long time, Star trek for example.. the trouble is always, how to get the energy back into matter in exactly the same order, shape and state as it was originally..

imagine the scenario, you convert your matter into energy and send it at the speed of light toward some other destination..
part of you consists of energy, so even by reforming your matter back into its original order and shape (no mean feat I expect) putting the energy back in exactly the same place would be (using typical British understatement) tricky... you'd end up as a piece of meat devoid of life.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.. which is how travel in a frictionless vacum is possible.. by throwing out objects at a velocity, you use force and therefore accellerate through space up to that velocity (examples are rifle kick and jumping out of a rowing boat)... another reason why travel faster than light is impossible, you cannot create impulses faster than light so therefore, you cannot travel faster than light... Unless there is a particle faster than light.. but then what would happen to your body and energy? The speed of light is supposed to be absolute so if do achieve the speed of light, you would die..

The only workaround is trans-dimentional voodoo to get around this limitation...

(back on track with the original thread ;) )


the one thing which hasn't been considered enough I think is Dark matter...

Apparently, there's lots of it.. what is it? what is it made from? what are it's properties? what happens when Dark matter meets regular matter?

[Angelo]

@jason, what is Dark...

I believe that Dark is nothing.
For example if you turn the lights of, you see black.
Why? Simply because there is no light, no light = black (of course if you turn of the lights you will see some things, but that is reflection).

It depends on how you define Dark yourself.
Are you talking about Dark itself or i.e. Dark in the space.
Because Dark in the space is just the result of no light, but inside there is something, for example gasses and stuff.

So, I think it matters how you define Dark...
And I define Dark as Dark itself.
If you do not believe this, what do you think that Dark is then?

Notice that I only say what I believe...

[JSoftware]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Slightly related is this, I found yesterday. Very interresting:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oRWwI61so5Q"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oRWwI61so5Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[jasonf]

@Angelo, it was a play on words, a joke :lol: If nothing is faster than light, then... Nothing must be quite quick (where nothing has been converted into something for the context of this joke, Read some Terry Pratchett, you'll understand ;))

Darkness is a wholly human invention.. It is a term created to describe the relative absence of light, something which can mean a little or very dark..

Objects are either illuminated or not. Light is energy and it reacts with objects on it's journey.. sometimes being converted into other forms of energy in the reaction, othertimes being reflected away on a different journey.. never destroyed, always converted at some point.

To say that darkness = nothing is inaccurate..
Darkness can exist even if there is light if the material the light interracts with absorbs all of the energy and converts it into other forms of energy.. no light would be reflected therefore, you wouldn't see anything.. there would be darkness... however, it is certainly not nothing.

Nothing is the absence of things. Void. Space. Space just happens to be dark because there's not a lot for light to interract with.

But darkness is not space and darkness is not nothing


What a load of waffle about nothing eh? :lol:

[DarknessX]

@Angelo, it was a play on words, a joke :lol: If nothing is faster than light, then... Nothing must be quite quick (where nothing has been converted into something for the context of this joke, Read some Terry Pratchett, you'll understand ;))

Darkness is a wholly human invention.. It is a term created to describe the relative absence of light, something which can mean a little or very dark..

Objects are either illuminated or not. Light is energy and it reacts with objects on it's journey.. sometimes being converted into other forms of energy in the reaction, othertimes being reflected away on a different journey.. never destroyed, always converted at some point.

To say that darkness = nothing is inaccurate..
Darkness can exist even if there is light if the material the light interracts with absorbs all of the energy and converts it into other forms of energy.. no light would be reflected therefore, you wouldn't see anything.. there would be darkness... however, it is certainly not nothing.

Nothing is the absence of things. Void. Space. Space just happens to be dark because there's not a lot for light to interract with.

But darkness is not space and darkness is not nothing


What a load of waffle about nothing eh? :lol:


Hmmmm... should I? Ah might as well...

Space. Coffee. Computers. Trees. The Earth. Pluto. Stars. Anything and Everything. It's ALL a human invention. Nothing could actually be Everything, while Anything could be both. Everything could refer to anything, but not everything, or it could refer to everything, but not certain things. Anything could refer to itself, coffee, space, etc. It could also be a word with no meaning. But thats the key: 'a word with no meaning'. Whatever it is we do, its human invention. ANYTHING. If we can communicate about it, its a human invention. Why? Because think of it this way:

"Hey, look at that transport truck!"

Now, forget what what you were taught about in school on the words 'transport' and 'truck'. If you learned about these words in the dictionary, or elsewhere, just imagine you were never taught them...

"Hey, look at that transport truck!"
"what? whats a... 'transport truck'?"

Now just imagine if the words 'transport' and 'truck' were never invented? Keyword: 'invented'. If you have to be taught something for you to know, its a human invention.

Now technically, thats like the saying, if a tree in the middle of a forest falls, and theres nobody around to hear it, does that mean that there was no sound? Well, no. But if something is being referred to using a specific word, meant to mean a certain thing, like 'darkness' or 'nothing'... It could mean anything. The word 'nothing' itself isn't referring to anything, and doesn't really mean 'nothing' as we know it, it's referring to the lack of something, which is SOMETHING. So as long as we refer to 'nothing', we are saying that the only thing there is the lack of something. Example:

Normally, there are 2 apples on your kitchen table, at all times. You wake up, and say, 'Wow! Theres nothing on my table!' But in truth, the thing that IS on your table, is the lack of apples.

Now say you woke up an saw 30 apples instead of 2.
'Wow! Look at everything!'
Your not referring to everything, your referring to the 28 excess apples that normally aren't there.

So if nothing means the lack of something, and everything means the excess of something, since nothing is also black, and everything is any color, does that not mean space is also nothing and everything at the same time? Because in some areas of space, there is NOTHING, but in others, there is EVERYTHING, because normally in space, there is nothing, but suddenly we run into planets and stars?

[jasonf]

Well, that proves it... Darkness cannot be nothing as he's a member of our forum ;-) Unless he was the only member in which case, darkness would be everything.

And to settle another issue... Darkness mate, how fast can you run? :lol:


It's all relative language... and it's fun to play on words.


The things about "If a tree falls in the forest and there's no-one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest), it's an old philisophical question designed to stimulate thoughts about the difference between the physical and the percieved world.

The act of falling and subsequent impact of the tree with the flora and fauna of the forest floor would cause vibrations which when observed by an appropriate intelligence would be classed as sound.. but if there's no-one there who knows the word "Sound" or understands the concept of "Sound" then it goes unobserved.. merely vibrations of particles caused by energy being transferred between physical bodies.

Sound like most other things are tools devised by humans to describe the world around us. I think the trouble is that we only have these tools and find it difficult to see beyond them.. hence the difficulty for most people in imagining beyond a 4th dimention..

I think anyone who can truly understand a 10th dimention is a smart cookie indeed.

[Angelo]

I also think its a matter between philosohpical theory and scientific aswell...


I think anyone who can truly understand a 10th dimention is a smart cookie indeed.

I believe in the myth that everyone has his own talent...

[Bijo]

Hmmmm. Regarding the tree falling when nobody hears it: we must merely apply simple logic.

First: if a tree falls -- even if we know it or not -- it simply occurs. Of course we don't know for we haven't been present to notice it, but that is irrelevant: what is relevant is the fact that we logically state "If it falls, it falls, regardless of our observations," and this statement is correct.

Second: what is sound? It is low/middle/high frequencies travelling through air and matter and does indeed occur regardless of our presence and our hearing perception. Short: a human entity is not on-site to detect the falling tree's sound, but nevertheless the sound did exist for the valid duration.