Looking for a real good RTS!

[WILL]

Hey guys, as the title says, I'm looking for a really nice RTS!

BUT, I'm not looking for one that it's just another big company 'graphics-a-thon mania extravaganza' or whatever else was made to line the pockets of the big game companies. Instead what I'm looking for is something that I can run on my current systems (ones that can run C&C: Generals rather well) and is made from a company like Stardock or Introversion.

I've recently been playing Stardock's Galactic Civilizations II, which is a ton of fun, looks great graphically, has a nice soundtrack and is very creative. So since I haven't found any new RTS games (besides the still being developed StarCraft II, and I am quite skeptical of what mega-system I'll need for that thing) I'm on the look for something that I can play with a buddy of mine that I play these games with all the time.

Any suggestions?

[JernejL]

C&C Red Alert 2.

works great on any system, still has very active multiplayer scene.

[Traveler]

Knowing Blizzard, you probably wont need a super computer to run Starcraft 2.

I'm bit of a rts fan myself, though I can't really say that I have played any for some time (blame wow for that ;)). Company of Heroes is really cool, although it can be a bit demanding on the hardware. Ground Control might be a better option, in that regard. I had some good fun with that one too.

[arthurprs]

Warcraft3 TFT

[JSoftware]

C&C: Tiberian Sun (I love the multiplayer part of this game..!)
Company of Heroes (Lovely game)
Rise of nations (Pretty fun game)
Age of Empires 2: The Conquerors (A classic)
Empire Earth

There's a few to try :P

[arthurprs]

Just released Empire Earh III

[NecroDOME]

Supreme commander

[Weedo]

You should start with the father of RTS..
StarCraft

then move to Age of Empires, Red Alert, Empire Earth, Rise of Nations, IMPERIVM, Praetorians, Warcraft...

also a nice old game is 7 Kingdoms :D realy old and fun !

[WILL]

Just to note, I'm not new to RTS. :P In fact I've played most of these older games that have been suggested already. (Omg, who hasn't played StarCraft, AoE or even WarCraft?!?! :o )

Sadly though most of what you guys are mentioning are just more of the same BIG COMPANY games that want more processing power and more pretty graphics with maybe one extra feature thrown on top of the usual gameplay.

Mind you some of these big software house games I haven't tried so maybe it's worth a go as they are sometimes pretty good, but again, like I said I'm looking more for games made by companies like Logic Factory, Stardock, Introversion, Lionhead Studios (before they got bought out by M$), the way Blizzard used to be pre-WoW/WC3 (WarCraft3 was complete utter crap in my mind. They sacrificed a lot of gameplay for pretty 3D graphics and marketing fluff.), etc... iow a small game development company, the kind that would put a lot of heart and soul into it because they care more for making a good game then just trying to keep their cash boxes filling up. :?

Common guys, don't you know of any small companies like this? :)

[NecroDOME]

last someone played a game (while I watched), RTS. You couldn't command your troops, but you need to train them. Dunno the name, only I know its free of charge :P
(I'll post a reply when I find the name)

[WILL]

Actually the Ground Control games seem interesting. Made by Massive Entertainment and published by Sierra. I find it funny that they seem to only publish games now, what ever happened to the time they used to make game, huh? :)

Haemimont Games is another interesting company indirectly made mention by Weedo for their Imperivm games. Which to be fair, I haven't played. Mind you 50+ developers... I'm weary of how the gameplay will really be, but at a glance their games seem to have potential. At least if their website has anything to say, they'll be pretty. :P

[Traveler]

Common guys, don't you know of any small companies like this? :)

Hmm perhaps SunAge (http://www.vertex4.com/sunage/) is what you're looking for. It was featured some time ago on Gamedev (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=465673). Apparently these guys worked on it for close to a decade. :shock:

Alternatively, you could also try Machines at war (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=468730). Although graphically it's not that interesting, is can be played on various systems.

[WILL]

Oh and I guess I should mention Supreme Commander from Gas Powered Games. I'm a bit weary of GPG after playing Dungeon Siege 2. :? I loved 1, but it seems like M$ got their claws into them and they started to lean the way of the dark side after that. It was a decent game and all, had a much nicer story development, but in the end gameplay was a tad more streamlined towards whats more traditional in RPG hack-em-ups. :P

[User137]

Have to mention this old classic; Total Annihilation (and expansion Core Contingency). Has much similarities to Red Alert and Starcraft...released slightly after it same year. If i could point out some good things about it:
- Unlimited units (if you can afford them by resources)
- Stationary very long range turrets of different kinds (like nuke silos, sniper cannons and massive miniguns that devastate entire bases if built close enough with proper defence)
- Little more advanced AI orders (air units can for example rest on ground but lift off on enemy sight, rapidly engage it and soon return)
- 3D polygonal units
- What makes skirmish fun is that you can tease CPU as long as you like, they will fully recover as long as they can get their hands on resources and any needed construction unit
- Ability to queue different things like constructions, movement, repair...
- Fans are still around modding and playing it online.

But in my long path i've never come across RTS better than Starcraft :wink: Tried a lot.

[Parcel]

How about 'Warzone 2100'?

It is opensource RTS on various platforms.

http://wz2100.net/

[NecroDOME]

Found it: Nero

http://nn.cs.utexas.edu/NERO/about.html

[Robert Kosek]

Found it: NeroDoesn't qualify as RTS. It's a real time tactics/training game like some of the "neo-RTS"es. EDIT: Not to mention it's completely boring IMO.

[NecroDOME]

I never played it. So i don't know if its boring :P
Definition of RTS: real time strategy. I don't know, but somehow it's real team and strategic. It's not about moving your unit,s but more how you train them . Just a different approach imo.

[Robert Kosek]

Hehe. Just try it. You'll be snoring in minutes, unless you've got the patience to teach very slow learning bots how to do things right.

The (newer) difference between RTS and RTT (Real Time Tactics) is that RTS spans more of the whole battle, whereas RTT is only a portion ... like the new game by Massive Entertainment. Whatever it is called... I forgot. Anyway, all you do is command units, tactical weapons, and reinforcements--like the Close Combat series. In NERO all you do is train soldiers and throw them at another squad. Tactics/Training is the genre.

;) Just my take since RTS is my favorite genre.

[WILL]

NERO is more or less an AI toy made by a bunch of university students. :) Really cool technology, but not a great implementation as far as a game of gameplay in general goes.

It also takes a bit of a steep learning curve I also found when I tried it. I didn't really have the patience to learn how to get to going properly however so I really can't say much about it that would be useful to you. :P

[chronozphere]

C&C Red Alert 2.

works great on any system, still has very active multiplayer scene.


Hmmm.. :think: i bought C&C first decade a few months ago. I wanted to play RA2 over a network. but it didn't work out. I cannot use IPX/SPX on vista, and RA2 doesn't support TCP/IP AFAIK. Any suggestions?

[Traveler]

Any suggestions?

Sure, install xp on a seperate partition.

[NecroDOME]

dosbox :) um... for the very old C&C (RA2 was windows right?)

[Robert Kosek]

Actually, CnC Gold runs on XP. They patched it for compatibility. :D

WILL, I tried that game twice and got the same result: deletion of all game related files. :lol: Haphazard calamity! It just up and deleted itself!

The Machines of War game is interesting though. I like how it uses the GDI for everything, though I'm curious how he's gone cross platform with the GDI. Unless he used GTK.

[NecroDOME]

The old, C&C 1 covert operations crashes on certain points :( .

[JC_]

If you like WW2 so try Sudden Strike 2 (with RWM mod). But here is no house building or standard resource management, only fighting, tactics..

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[Traveler]

Good one :thumbup:

I've played Sudden Strike a lot, too. It's a great game, difficult at certain times, but great.

[VS]

World war 3: black gold. Really old, but I really loved the music and atmosphere. And it is "realistic", although in a different way than you would probably expect...

[WILL]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?

It would be somewhat easier to complete than say something like an RPG or something else with a ton of required content.

We've had Shooters, Platformers, Scrollers, RPGs galore, Racing, a Sim RPG project somewhere in there, puzzle galore, etc and so on... but I don't think we've had an RTS. At least one that was completed.

[Traveler]

Hmmm, iirc there was a thread about a Russian remake of dune2000, a few years ago. I've tried searching for it, but without results unfortunately.

Creating a rts game is still one of my ultimate goals. I'm not sure though if its easier than a rpg. I think the balancing issues and especially the enemy AI make it tougher than any other genre.

[cairnswm]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?

It would be somewhat easier to complete than say something like an RPG or something else with a ton of required content.

We've had Shooters, Platformers, Scrollers, RPGs galore, Racing, a Sim RPG project somewhere in there, puzzle galore, etc and so on... but I don't think we've had an RTS. At least one that was completed.

I wrote an RTS for one of my early 48 hour contest entries. But it certainly doesn't fit into the 'Good' category :) You play the white blood cells in the body protecting it from a horde of invading germs.

http://www.cairnsgames.co.za/blog/RTVS-Post.zip

:)

[WILL]

Ah! I guess I forgot about your game William. :P

But wasn't it about fairy city building or something? Aimed at young kids obviously...

Still it's not as widely accessable to those that would want a full RTS game no. Doesn't mean it's not 'good', just not 100% within the usual RTS audience's targeted game spectrum. ;)


As for if it were easier to make an RPG... no way man! :) Think of all the custom made art and content you'd need for an RPG. It's by far the largest amount of work for any project you try to do. (Unless the content is really that low. Then as an RPG the game probably sucks, story-wise.)

I think RTS would be way easier. Balancing is more or less a matter or planning ahead or doing the math/numbers and weighing them out in a planned format before you commit to it in code. All you'd have to do then is make minor tweaks here and there where one factor is a bit more heavy then where it would seem on paper.

So really it's far easier to toggle a range, speed or a damage count than get an artist to create X amount of characters with Y amount of animations just to fill up a village because you need this location in your story. Besides, you'd have to balance your RPG as well, right? ;)

[pstudio]

I think RTS would be way easier. Balancing is more or less a matter or planning ahead or doing the math/numbers and weighing them out in a planned format before you commit to it in code. All you'd have to do then is make minor tweaks here and there where one factor is a bit more heavy then where it would seem on paper.
You make it sound to easy imo. The coding aspect may not be that hard but that is only one part of making a RTS. Making a balanced RTS with +20 units, +10 buildings, which could be considered a small RTS, would take many days/months/years to get balanced just right. Unless you're extremely lucky you'll have to be prepared to work hard on getting a balanced game. If a unit just give 2 hitpoints to much in damage it can change everything in the game and make it to hard/easy.

I've always wanted to make a game like Red Alert and I hope to do it someday, but it's such a big project that it's hard to get started with it stay motivated for the whole project.

[WILL]

Well I don't think it would be so easy, but compared to an RPG definately not.

However the time to properly balance the game would depend on the amount of play testing you are able to get feedback on. But yeah, the more unique units each race/faction and the total number of races/factions you have would of course increase the extra balancing required.

Overall, I think it would depend on the complexity of the RTS in question. So yes, it could take quite a while to get all of that in order, but no where near as long as it would take to put together an RPG of similar complexity. If you could even compare the two that way. :)

[cairnswm]

Ah! I guess I forgot about your game William. :P

But wasn't it about fairy city building or something? Aimed at young kids obviously...


Thats one I started but never got that far with. :)

Actually the game was called Real Time Viral Strategy - the theme of the contest was desease or Virus or something. You control the white blood cells attacking germs :)

[Robert Kosek]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?Yup. But it takes mountains of artwork I can't even get, though maybe I could get something really basic out the door.

[pstudio]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?
It sounds like a PGD community project ;)

[arthurprs]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?Yup. But it takes mountains of artwork I can't even get, though maybe I could get something really basic out the door.
Art and sound is the worst part of a project in my opnion

[pstudio]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?Yup. But it takes mountains of artwork I can't even get, though maybe I could get something really basic out the door.
Art and sound is the worst part of a project in my opnion
And that's probably why you're a programmer :P
It's the same for me, and when reading different fora it seems to be a general problem for most programmers.
Ofcourse there exists pogrammers with an artistic skill (or artists with programming skills) but I think they make a small minority.

Luckily for us non-artists their exists many free resources to use in our games (at least as temporarily gfx.) :mrgreen:

[WILL]

Hmm... has anyone considered making an RTS project?
It sounds like a PGD community project ;)
Well I've counted at least 3 people that had an interest right here. :)

Why doesn't one of you organize something? Thats how the DGDev Team got started. :)

If nothing else, you could make a basic RTS so the end goal is more attainable. You could also give out the source so that others might have a basic platform to build off of in the future.

[NecroDOME]

Sounds nice. A community project. Due lack of time and work on my own engine I will not be able to help code, but will certainly follow the progress. And maybe help on working out some ideas.

Well... now we are talking aboot projects, how/when is the next compo? (yeah I, not the right thread to ask... but do it anyway :P ... im a bit lazy today)

[Robert Kosek]

Well, maybe I could make something that works as a map "engine" for an isometric RTS. But it'd take some doing to get that in motion at the moment.

[pstudio]

I've just ordered 3 books on RTS programming for 85 $ (I'm cheap so I bought one book used for 4 $). However I ordered the from Amazon.com so I'll probably have to pay 100 $ in customs.
Unfortunately I won't have time to read them before Christmas (If I'm optimistic), but I'm looking foreward to study the finer aspects of RTS programming. It must be more fun than what I'm studying at the university. ;)

btw while we're talking abot rts I ran into this (http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_jokes_20057151.asp) imo amusing joke.

[WILL]

Throw up some titles/ISBN #s! We might want to have a look at them too. ;)

I think the most interesting/complex part of the RTS would be the computer AI. Having a computer opponent determine what to make and where to put it so that it gives it an advantage and then there is the combat element as a whole separate or even better succinct aspect.

I think the AI would take the longest to do, but it would likely be the fun part of the project. Current RTS AI (ok as of say Pre-AoE3/C&C:Generals just because those are the latest RTS I've played and I have the same general issue with them too) kinda sucks imo. There is no real advanced planning or attack plans as a human would have. It's more along the lines of pile up some of X and then some of Y and then just a few Z and off they go attacking in whatever general area calculates to the greatest threat.

No searching, no layered gameplan, but build rush, build rush... and ain't it funny how they ALWAYS know where you are.. hmmm :scratch:

Yup current day RTS AI sucks. Can't wait for someone with some actual strategy experience puts the big S into RTS. :P

[NecroDOME]

If I'm home I could check if I can dig something up on e-books. I downloaded some a few months back and never looked at it again.

However, I once had planes for making an RTS as school project, but since i'm not in sk00l (w00t) any more and have the flight game planned it's just an idea. Zhooibaal also has great ideas on RTS games, so I can ask him to join this thread.

[Robert Kosek]

What I always enjoyed in AoK was to wall in early. Then scouts could probe, and probe, and probe and find just the same old walls--but no towncenter. :D Didn't stop the attacks, of course, but it really made it hard for them to choose a place to hit when I threw down that second layer of walls and gates.

The good old days.

Unfortunately it isn't just the AI anymore, in AoE 3 the whole concept of a card system ruins the game. As Russians I can get some 40+ Streltets in the first fifteen minutes of playtime without paying, and that's in addition to the ones I create! Talk about your overkill. Soon as you unlock Mercs, at least for the Russians, it gives you something to do with your stockpiles to reinforce your amazing rushing army. (Micromanaging for the boring win...)

I haven't played AoE3 since its release, I hate its balance so much.

What I've been looking into for AI lately is fuzzy AI, when combined with things like state machines, or a cousin thereof, it makes for an even better "brain". Not to mention floating point math is really fast on modern systems.

I'm going to have to try something after all this... :roll: I'll have to dig out Phoenix and try it with Lazarus, and hope Andreaz fixes my PNG-8 import bug.

[Zhooibaal]

Zhooibaal also has great ideas on RTS games, so I can ask him to join this thread.
So you did hehe. Let me dig in my mind archives. I always have ideas but barely ever write anything down, maybe I should do that more often :P

[pstudio]

Throw up some titles/ISBN #s! We might want to have a look at them too. Wink

Well the most interesting is probably this one (http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Game-Direct3D-Carl-Granberg/dp/1584504986).
Ofcourse I can't say anything about the quality of this book yet, but it seems to cover the general things about building a RTS.

[savage]

Is Syndicate considered an RTS?

[WILL]

I've never got a chance to play it (and it doesn't seem to want to work on my system even in DOSBox perhaps due to my screen size?)

BUT an RTS (or Real Time Strategy) is defined by the fact that you are playing all the factors of the battle. Resource gathering, building up your offensive forces & defensive forces/structures and of course the combat it's self.

On the other hand there is RTT (which is Real Time Tactical) which is merely only a part of what an RTS would be and usually only focuses on the combat aspect of the game.


I was under the impression that Syndicate was of the 'Squad game' genre though. Which is a bit different, but I guess it fits into the grander Strategy category of games.

Ah, all this will be like music is going these days, it'll be so mixed that there will be this whole new layer of genre that may or may not take some doing to descern where it would most fit under older categories. :)