Reintroduction to CodeGear

[WILL]

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[savage]

Maybe too little to late. I hope not, but that's my gut instinct.

[Robert Kosek]

I must admit, I agree with Dom. I've already invested in a copy of Chrome.

[WILL]

Well at least the added exposure will help show that Delphi and Object Pascal are alive and kicking still.

[Robert Kosek]

Unfortunately, without clearing up misconceptions about the language, it does nothing. Half the world who are inexperienced with OBJECT Pascal still believe it to be a solely procedural language. The other forty percent or so are just arrogant and insulting about it. Without clearing this up, and giving FPC/Lazarus a better interface, Object Pascal will make little headway outside of its existing adopters. It's a pretty bleak outlook in my opinion.

[dmantione]

Note that many "new style" languages are procedural or have their OOP features seldomly used. I.e. PHP, LUA, Python. Not everyone wants to learn complicated OOP frameworks, these languages are popular because they are easy to learn and have simple constructions to get the task done.

I consider being suitable for both procedural and OOP programming a strong point of Pascal.

[WILL]

A video on the advantages of working with Object Pascal would come in handy if someone was so inclined to make one.

Perhaps someone from here should think about how to put one together? Make the case that OP is great for such things.

[deathshadow]

On news items like this, SOME text would be nice... especially for those of us who browse with plugins disabled - getting a big empty box with NOTHING to describe what's in there is... annoying.

[vgo]

I second that!

[Robert Kosek]

dmantione, the problem is that Object Pascal is perceived to be the same language as what existed with Turbo Pascal, by and large. Unless you've used it, you'd think it's some archaic procedural-only language.

I agree, one of Pascal's great strengths is in its ability to handle both procedural and OOP programming well.

But without the misconceptions and predilections against Object Pascal being cleared up, most people are just left wondering: So? They rank us with LISP for popularity and "fringe" usefulness.

If you want to create and/or sell a compiler you really have to support and promote the language for it to succeed. FreePascal's struggles, by and large, stem from the stigma, the interface, and the code incompatibilities. CodeGear's wont be any less.

Thus, I say the outlook of the language is bleak without some serious correction to the stigma and some real promotion of the power of Object Pascal.

[LP]

I consider being suitable for both procedural and OOP programming a strong point of Pascal.
Another strength of Pascal in its procedural paradigm is that it's pseudo-structural in fact. It's one of the few languages that inherently provides encapsulation without the need of OOP.

Take a look at a simple Pascal unit. In the "interface" section you can have variables, procedures and so on - similar to what you will be having in public section of an object. In similar way, "implementation" section contains private code, variables that is used by the unit internally. It has also initialization/finalization sections which work like constructors/destructors.

Thus, a single unit is already a limited object construct, which allows you to develop object-oriented applications without actually using what we formally call classes.

Actually, I don't think you need to promote Pascal langauge itself. I'd promote more the framework, the compiler capabilities and the IDE. Unfortunally, current Delphi implementation falls short in compiler area when compared to FreePascal.

Delphi's still strong point is IDE, but honestly, after using latest Visual Studio you start to see the developers of Delphi as pawns who have fallen behind the marketing of .NET. A simple hint in Delphi code editor takes 2-5 seconds to load, while in Visual Studio it's instant. An IDE should be as much responsive as possible, so on this matter, .NET *is not the right tool for the job*.

[VilleK]

Delphi's still strong point is IDE, but honestly, after using latest Visual Studio you start to see the developers of Delphi as pawns who have fallen behind the marketing of .NET. A simple hint in Delphi code editor takes 2-5 seconds to load, while in Visual Studio it's instant. An IDE should be as much responsive as possible, so on this matter, .NET *is not the right tool for the job*.
As far as I know, both VS and Delphi IDEs are still written in native code and although some extensions are .NET-based, the editor is not. And IMO .NET performance is good enough for making a code-completion feature, as long as you design your code carefully with performance in mind. But I don't want to start a native code vs. managed code-war here :)

[LP]

As far as I know, both VS and Delphi IDEs are still written in native code and although some extensions are .NET-based, the editor is not. And IMO .NET performance is good enough for making a code-completion feature, as long as you design your code carefully with performance in mind. But I don't want to start a native code vs. managed code-war here :)
No argument there. However, there is no reason to mix native and managed code. You use more memory (for .NET assemblies) and have to wait when certain feature is loaded. It's like they couldn't write refactoring code on the native platform.

[rif]

Half the world who are inexperienced with OBJECT Pascal still believe it to be a solely procedural language. The other forty percent or so are just arrogant and insulting about it.
I understand what you are saying, you could as well add that many people will say "nobody uses Delphi or Pascal, all wellknown programs are written in C, C++ or Java".
While Delphi is not the most used programming tool/language there is a lot of applications that has been written in Delphi, people just do not know.
That is why we over on the Delphi Wiki started the list "Good quality applications built with Delphi".
http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/Good_Quality_Applications_Built_With_Delphi
You are welcome to add more (good) applications to the lists there.
Delphi is mainly strong in utility, productivity and office software, whereas an area like games development is a weaker point. That is why it is good to see all the effort people here on PGD is putting into game development. Once in a while there comes out some good looking games with great playbility.
Doei RIF

[cronodragon]

I find this interesting:
http://delphi.about.com/od/delphifornet/a/conspiracydnet.htm

[rif]

It's like they couldn't write refactoring code on the native platform.
CodeGear/Borland had the implementation for the refactoring in Java. They then used J# to add it to the IDE. It is really twisted but MS has dropped J# development/support but CodeGear stick to using it. It will be a happy day when they get this reimplemented in Delphi code and can junk the J#. However currently there is much more important features to add to Delphi, so they should certainly not waste time on this for the time being. Coming soon: Generics, Unicode, a help system that works again? and a bit later 64bit.
Doei RIF

[Robert Kosek]

Half the world who are inexperienced with OBJECT Pascal still believe it to be a solely procedural language. The other forty percent or so are just arrogant and insulting about it.
I understand what you are saying, you could as well add that many people will say "nobody uses Delphi or Pascal, all wellknown programs are written in C, C++ or Java".
While Delphi is not the most used programming tool/language there is a lot of applications that has been written in Delphi, people just do not know.
That is why we over on the Delphi Wiki started the list "Good quality applications built with Delphi".
http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/Good_Quality_Applications_Built_With_Delphi
You are welcome to add more (good) applications to the lists there.
Delphi is mainly strong in utility, productivity and office software, whereas an area like games development is a weaker point. That is why it is good to see all the effort people here on PGD is putting into game development. Once in a while there comes out some good looking games with great playbility.
Doei RIFI understand what you say as well, and understand that I am a longtime user of Delphi and Object Pascal (more or less). I have used Delphi or other Pascal compilers for no less than nine years, running on ten now. I started with Delphi 4.

I am not arguing about switching away, that isn't what I want. What I want are better compilers for Pascal, better stability, and better affordability. But also, to extend and grow the development community you cannot expect sales without some effort towards curing the negative view of the language as a whole.


I hear you saying .NET is slow, Yuriy, but in my experiments with Chrome and .NET I have found this to not be the case. There are always bottlenecks and the language and framework dictate the location of these. Thus far, every bottleneck I've found has a shortcut that provides, at least, a decent level of speed. For games, perhaps it is a little slow--but I'm leaning toward making a roguelike at the moment and turnbased games don't have to process as fast as real-time ones. At least, unlike delphi, I can develop for Mono and put it on any system that supports it.

[rif]

A video on the advantages of working with Object Pascal would come in handy if someone was so inclined to make one.
I can not think of a strictly promotional video, but there are some good instructional videos from 3D Buzz + other that go quite a way to show what Delphi is capable of and get more people started programming in Delphi.

Video list here:
http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/Delphi_Videos

Doei RIF

[rif]

I am not arguing about switching away, that isn't what I want. What I want are better compilers for Pascal, better stability, and better affordability. But also, to extend and grow the development community you cannot expect sales without some effort towards curing the negative view of the language as a whole.
I think the best way to promote Delphi and FreePascal is simply to write better applications with it, make videos and write articles on the net on how to solve programming problems. When you can make it easy to get started programming Delphi/Pascal and can show some famous software product developed in Delphi, more people will chose it.

Doei RIF

[LP]

I hear you saying .NET is slow, Yuriy, but in my experiments with Chrome and .NET I have found this to not be the case. There are always bottlenecks and the language and framework dictate the location of these.
No, this wasn't what I said. I simply pointed out that I'd like to see the whole IDE using only one platform, not several simultaneously. If I develop purely Win32 applications, I might not want to install .NET just to run the compiler on my machine. Of course, it's one of these situations where you have no other choice than "to obey", but it's still an inconvenience. Most importantly, because as it was already mentioned, the majority of IDE doesn't need .NET Framework.

For instance, I never had Java runtimes installed for past 4 years and it would be the same for .NET, if it wasn't for BDS 2005 / Turbo Delphi.



I think the best way to promote Delphi and FreePascal is simply to write better applications with it, make videos and write articles on the net on how to solve programming problems. When you can make it easy to get started programming Delphi/Pascal and can show some famous software product developed in Delphi, more people will chose it.
I think if CodeGear can persuade some institutions to give classes in Delphi/ObjectPascal, it will greatly improve awareness and potential customer base for their products. They could even give some of the courses themselves. Having many Delphi-made applications is a plus, but people will still have to invest learning Delphi.

P.S. I somehow feel more CodeGear emphasis on their Delphi for PHP (I've been getting some e-mails in my spambox about CodeGear showing off their productline in nearby city). Sounds like they are still not focusing much on Win32/64. Too bad.

[VilleK]

I agree about a single technology for the IDE. At the very minimum if you in the delphi installer deselect support for refactoring then dotnet should not be needed, but that's not the case today.

Delphi for PHP is a product that CodeGear bought and it is developed outside of codegear and do not take resources from the normal Delphi product, as far as I know.

[Robert Kosek]

No, this wasn't what I said. I simply pointed out that I'd like to see the whole IDE using only one platform, not several simultaneously. If I develop purely Win32 applications, I might not want to install .NET just to run the compiler on my machine. Of course, it's one of these situations where you have no other choice than "to obey", but it's still an inconvenience. Most importantly, because as it was already mentioned, the majority of IDE doesn't need .NET Framework.

For instance, I never had Java runtimes installed for past 4 years and it would be the same for .NET, if it wasn't for BDS 2005 / Turbo Delphi.Sorry about that, I did indeed misunderstand you. Yes, I agree completely! Pick one and stick with it. This halfwitted manner of partially .NET, partially J#, and PARTIALLY native code is a really bad method of design. Sure, I'd expect folks to write plugins to some programs in many languages ... but its own developers? :?

Delphi for PHP is a bad idea. I've said it from day one, there's no such thing as WYSIWYG editing of HTML (at least reliably so) without absolute positioning, and they do all the worst things you could do. I use phpDesigner Pro as my "IDE" and it's great. Why would I ever pay hundreds for something I have to clean up after? Dreamweaver mark 3, times pi, coming right up! :roll:

[rif]

What I want are better compilers for Pascal, better stability, and better affordability. But also, to extend and grow the development community you cannot expect sales without some effort towards curing the negative view of the language as a whole.

I agree, CodeGear has to excel in compilers and development tools. I see that they are working on this, but after Kylix 3 there was a some years with very little useful Delphi compiler/IDE progress. All this they now have to catch up with. I am hopeful that the two next Delphi versions on the roadmap will be a good and a great edition.

Currently the biggest problem for Delphi is in the parent company Borland, where a boardroom of golf playing fools, have been squandering away the positive income generated from Delphi and other CodeGear tools, while wasting money on the ALM pie-in-the-sky product range. The best thing for Delphi and CodeGear would be to split from Borland, however this might not be so easy.

[rif]

Sorry about that, I did indeed misunderstand you. Yes, I agree completely! Pick one and stick with it. This halfwitted manner of partially .NET, partially J#, and PARTIALLY native code is a really bad method of design.
Just for the record: J# is dot-net.


Delphi for PHP is a bad idea.
I do not think it is a bad product, but the name is all wrong. I wish they would have called it Acropolis or some other classic Greek name. People would have understood the relation to Delphi without expecting it to be the same.

[Robert Kosek]

I am perfectly aware that J# is .NET ... but it is also Java. One mixture of elements is one thing, but .NET and Java, plus semi-native .NET, plus standard VCL native code is a bad combination. This was my point. I'm aware of the intricacies.

And I think Delphi for PHP is a bad product, just in my own personal opinion. So long as it is restricted to poor implementations and style designs like they use, and so long as it is tied to their own javascript library I see it as a bad idea. Aptana Studio anyone? It might be a heavy, code/interpretation heavy, Java-powered IDE but at least it doesn't force you to use a given library.

[noeska]

Borland do seem to have a thing with java as even their new sql database is written in java, they also have a .net version for it (i gues that one is written in j#) I would have like the product if it were native pascal and alse be compileable for the win32 target.
I don't know how strong their roots with delphi (for win32) are as on their homepage delphi for win32 is mentioned last an the first product mentioned is an java plugin for eclipse?
To me it seems codegear is betting on to many horses at once. Though as propably mentioned above i am missing horses for the linux target. Following .net borland could release a product supporting mono.net .

[arthurprs]

Dreaming does not hurt :(

[marmin]

I'm not so worried about teh future of Delphi/object Pascal.

It's an old discussion. Pascal hasn't been in mainstream from the beginning. I feel very comfortable with this, I love it. Sometimes, outsiders score big points.

But.. watching this video, is there any reaction from the Codegear/delphi developers towards the freepascal/lazarus project? Are they fine with it, or are they not interested. I mean, it is a real threat towards the Delphi project, right?. And it's free. :D I guess they will neglect i,t as it will steal profit from them.

[wodzu]

Guys you all can improve the next Delphi version.

Just fill out this survey:

http://infopoll.net/live/surveys/s31894.htm

[savage]

I've been using Lazarus and FPC to port a commercial Delphi game related application to Mac OS X and Linux and it has been relatively painless.

Not everything is working 100% yet, but the same codebase compiles and runs on both Mac OS X and Linux using the LCL and I think we are at about 85% finished.

Lazarus is not perfect, but it is starting to give Delphi a real run for it's money. It annihilates Delphi in the portability stakes, and since it's open source, it will just be a matter of time before it matches Delphi in the userbility stakes.

Take a look, you may be pleasantly surprised.