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WILL
16-03-2009, 08:22 PM
So when is the next PGD Annual guys? Anyone planning anything? Any themes in mind? It's been too long and going on 2 years without a competition or event to speak of. And where is Jason and Dean? :P

If you need advice or ideas of how to get prizes and advertize I can lend some advice. I helped run the first 3 competitions so I can give you a head start on what pitfalls you'll come up to first and how to get better exposure, etc...

Lets have a serious conversation on a new competition... PGD needs something to pep up the communitya bit. ;)

jdarling
16-03-2009, 08:23 PM
Yep, yep... Seems we saw a post about it happening a month or two ago saying keep an eye out. Well, I'm keeping an eye out, but I'm not seeing it yet :nerd:

Come on, I need something fun to screw up.

chronozphere
17-03-2009, 09:02 AM
I'd love to have another compo here at PGD as i've always been unable to join. Unfortunately I have my exams in May and i can't indulge in some fun project during the next weeks. :no:

Ñuño Martínez
17-03-2009, 09:34 AM
I have almost no free time but I would try it again this year. But, please, can you wait until I release the first beta of Allegro.pas 4.3 (http://allegro-pas.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/allegro-pas/)? ::)

Seriously. The version 4.2 doesn't links on Linux, I haven't a Windows installed and I didn't have time to learn another game library1. :no: Only a month or may be two. ;D

1 also I didn't find another game library that fits my style. ;)

pstudio
17-03-2009, 10:04 AM
It would be fun with a competition again, but if it happens I would request it to start during the summer and perhaps last for a half year. I know some of us are students and don't have to much time to code because we have exams all the time.

And drop the deadlines. I know they were there for our own sake, but with varying time available they were only causing lack of motivation when you realized that you couldn't follow the deadlines.

NecroDOME
17-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Yeah, compo for the win!! I think we should do a compo (with or without prizes) just to keep this community alive and just for fun.

Legolas
17-03-2009, 11:37 AM
I would like a "no rules" compo, without deadlines and themes. IMHO it could help to get more entries :)

Ñuño Martínez
17-03-2009, 11:45 AM
What about a fast compo, you know, something like Speedhack (http://www.speedhack.allegro.cc/intro) or TINS (http://blog.bigcat.unimaas.nl/~martijn/tins08/intro.php).

NecroDOME
17-03-2009, 01:59 PM
No fast compo's! Most ppl would not even start about it. Give ppl some time. (I made some games in 24 and 48 hours and I can tell you that you run out of time before you are even started)

Deadlines:
You MUST have a deadline at least on the end, however, I like the deadlines in between.

Theme:
Don't have a too complex theme line the multiplexity. Too many ppl baled out. Keep in mind that some are just starters and some are experienced.
The Big Boss was a realy great compo. It lets the user compleetly free in what to create.
So let the theme be something "open" like "The Big Race" or "The Big Fight" (and name it more original than I just did :) ). A theme also makes it easy for the jury to judge entries.

Ñuño Martínez
17-03-2009, 03:07 PM
No fast compo's! Most ppl would not even start about it. Give ppl some time. (I made some games in 24 and 48 hours and I can tell you that you run out of time before you are even started)

Deadlines:
You MUST have a deadline at least on the end, however, I like the deadlines in between.

Theme:
Don't have a too complex theme line the multiplexity. Too many ppl baled out. Keep in mind that some are just starters and some are experienced.
The Big Boss was a realy great compo. It lets the user compleetly free in what to create.
So let the theme be something "open" like "The Big Race" or "The Big Fight" (and name it more original than I just did :) ). A theme also makes it easy for the jury to judge entries.
I almost agree. ;D

I like the deadlines in between too. By the way, these deadlines are just a suggestion (except the end one, of course) so you can set your own deadlines for each step for your development.

I agree with your theme suggestion too. Just a simple one, may be two, will make the compo more attractive.

(I'm pretty bored at the office today. :no:... )

WILL
17-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Well I can take full responsibility for the overcomplexity of the last competition. (No pun intended) It was a bit heavy duty and could have scared some away. If there were another I'd say to make it single end deadline. Time to complete is still an issue that's up in the air as to whats best.

What do you guys think about doing a theme like 'AI' or 'Arcade'? Keeping it simple you have to make a came that is about or falls into the category of one of those...

It's been tradition that PGD Annual competitions get sponsorship from Borland/CodeGear so they would likely chip in a copy or 2 of Delphi... Maybe even Delphi Prism now that you can do .NET 3.0 and XNA game dev on it...? 8)

I'd be willing to spot the event a couple hundred myself for the IGF sponsorship or for some hardware instead... Maybe even the prize mugs or something... (Michiel, Frank and Dirk still have and use theirs :P)

WILL
17-03-2009, 03:39 PM
Oh and there was one thing that was good about the 2007 PGD Annual, the project plans. It let us know how many people from the start were truly interested in making entries, not just the ones that stuck it threw to the end.

arthurprs
18-03-2009, 12:03 AM
"rule less" does not work ... everything need rules nowdays, but less rules would be great

jdarling
18-03-2009, 02:19 PM
I think a compo based upon deadlines is a good idea. Though making the deadlines a bit more loose could be achieved as such:

Stage 1 (1 week): Define project scope and future checkpoints
Stage 2 (2 weeks): as defined by team (this could be engine, or graphics, or whatever)
Stage 3 (2 weeks): show some progress
Stage 4 (2 weeks): Show an almost complete game (only needs spit and polish)
Stage 5 (1 week): Final game

Each stage entry should have a quick progress report attached with it.

This gives the best of both worlds. Deadlines that allow the team to setup goals, this is actually how it works in the real world. The client says I want to see progress every X days/weeks/months and the team produces progress reports with a Demo where applicable.

NecroDOME
20-03-2009, 07:45 PM
...
Maybe even the prize mugs or something... (Michiel, Frank and Dirk still have and use theirs :P)


I still worship mine!!!

Will, about AI... I know you like it, but what did you have in mind? Having zombies wandering around and hit you when you jump in the middle of it IS AI (see Uber Zombie). Well... an computer controlled pong-bat is AI (it just follows the ball), and isn't that hard to make. But making some aircraft or racing car drive around a track with physics is a lot harder to accomplish. (I would go for rather dumb enemies... make them not so strong, but put a shitload in a level, add blood, add player and viola, a game :) ).

About arcade: **** YEAH!!

My opinion would be to have a theme that is kinda open. Arcade is open. 'The Big Race' is an open theme, but having a 'Big Car Race' isn't that open.

@jdarling:
I like that approach, but I would take like 3 weeks for stage 2, 3 and 4. A little stretch.

chronozphere
20-03-2009, 10:41 PM
Will, about AI... I know you like it, but what did you have in mind?

Well, I think he's talking about everyone writing nifty intelligent code. No pun, but I wouldn't call the examples you mention "intelligent" (except from the Drive along track with physics one). Here are a few examples:

> Make units that can behave in different ways e.g Agressive, Passive, Guard stance, patrolling, and make them change to a different state depending on the situation. I could think of a game where the player has to rob a bank full of guards. You could use this kind of AI to make the game more difficult and fun.
> If you are writing a sci-fi game with battle-ships n stuff, you could do something similair with enemy ships. For example, let them fly away when they are allmost out of fuel, or let them generate a should around themselves when they have alot of energy but no ammo etc.. Let them make smart decisions.
> AI also consists of things like path-finding, line of sight things, data-sharing between multiple "intelligent" instances/objects etc...

I think it can be a fun theme for the compo, but i also like "The big race". :)

pstudio
21-03-2009, 12:12 AM
I think a compo based upon deadlines is a good idea. Though making the deadlines a bit more loose could be achieved as such:

Stage 1 (1 week): Define project scope and future checkpoints
Stage 2 (2 weeks): as defined by team (this could be engine, or graphics, or whatever)
Stage 3 (2 weeks): show some progress
Stage 4 (2 weeks): Show an almost complete game (only needs spit and polish)
Stage 5 (1 week): Final game

Each stage entry should have a quick progress report attached with it.

This gives the best of both worlds. Deadlines that allow the team to setup goals, this is actually how it works in the real world. The client says I want to see progress every X days/weeks/months and the team produces progress reports with a Demo where applicable.


I could accept this sort of deadlines. They're more open but I would add some more weeks to it.


What do you guys think about doing a theme like 'AI' or 'Arcade'? Keeping it simple you have to make a came that is about or falls into the category of one of those...


I personally don't like the AI theme. Sure any computer controlled player (like pong as NecroDOME mentioned) can be called AI but I suspect that you mean something a bit more advanced. I think this would only allow a little exclusive bunch of programmers to really participate. Those who are interested in AI.
The theme should be totally open and allow any person to participate. The arcade theme sounds awesome. Anyone can join the compitition for a theme like that.

jdarling
21-03-2009, 02:19 AM
I was just trying to keep a 2 month timeline :). I think either 3 week deadlines or adding two additional 2 week deadlines would work well (keeping the total time around 3 months).

Actually, personally, I like 2 week deadlines as they keep it interesting. Of course, that means the judges would have to work too :)

As for theme, I like Arcade. Since I like Retro games I can easily fit the Arcade style :)

paul_nicholls
21-03-2009, 03:28 AM
I was just trying to keep a 2 month timeline :). I think either 3 week deadlines or adding two additional 2 week deadlines would work well (keeping the total time around 3 months).

Actually, personally, I like 2 week deadlines as they keep it interesting. Of course, that means the judges would have to work too :)

As for theme, I like Arcade. Since I like Retro games I can easily fit the Arcade style :)


I vote for arcade too :)
cheers,
Paul

Ñuño Martínez
23-03-2009, 02:23 PM
One more for arcade. :yes:

NecroDOME
23-03-2009, 02:36 PM
Arcade in (1) "make a remake or an old game" or just (2) "make anything you like as long as it's arcade" ?
I would go for option 2 :)

Huehnerschaender
25-03-2009, 10:35 PM
Well, let me tell you something:

I am out of the whole Pascal thing for a year now and I am still doing experiments in game development (right now I am using C# and the Microsoft XNA Framework) and its great what I can do with the new things I use..... but.... Everytime I drink a coffee at work (I work 5 days a week and drink up to 10 cups of coffee per day) I think about the Big Bad Boss Contest that I won. I NEVER EVER had so much fun in doing the things we all are addicted to. Writing "Tanx" was my very best experience in learning things and using them to complete a project while I can talk and show progress to my "opponents" within the contest.
There was so much fun in the contest. Everyone showed their progress in a thread that had several thousands of reads in the end, some posted fakes to frighten people, some posted their problems or their funny bugs... it all was just a lot of fun.

So in short words: If you decide a theme that is of interest and that sounds fun, then count me in! I never had so much fun with another community again!

Cheers.

chronozphere
25-03-2009, 10:48 PM
Wow.. Great to hear that you are still interested in a pascal-compo Dirk. Tanx was awesome and I cant wait to see your next entry (if any). ;D

paul_nicholls
25-03-2009, 11:11 PM
Arcade in (1) "make a remake or an old game" or just (2) "make anything you like as long as it's arcade" ?
I would go for option 2 :)


I second the motion for option 2 :)
cheers,
Paul

Ñuño Martínez
27-03-2009, 01:06 AM
Arcade in (1) "make a remake or an old game" or just (2) "make anything you like as long as it's arcade" ?
I would go for option 2 :)
I prefer option 1. I love retro style games. :)

WILL
27-03-2009, 02:45 AM
If the site decided not to do a competition this year I may do a smaller contest in the Pascal Gamer mag. Something like a casual game theme may take place. ;) But it would be later in the year.

NecroDOME
27-03-2009, 07:52 AM
Well, I think most want a compo, but I guess it lacks on jury and stuff

Ñuño Martínez
27-03-2009, 08:57 AM
Well, I think most want a compo, but I guess it lacks on jury and stuff

There are competitions where the jury are the competitors themselves. Just a suggestion. ::)

NecroDOME
27-03-2009, 09:06 AM
mmm good idea :) . As long as they don't give them self extra points :P

paul_nicholls
28-03-2009, 04:57 AM
mmm good idea :) . As long as they don't give them self extra points :P


Perhaps somehow make it so you can't vote for your entry, only other people's entries :)
cheers,
Paul

WILL
28-03-2009, 04:14 PM
Before I left managing PGD, I had an untried solution for this problem. I was going to use some of my external contacts, contacts from outside of the Pascal realm, and have them do the judging. Tearing down the stages function of the competition would make judging all that much easier and in turn would make getting judges easier. And this really is a crucial step in having such a competition. No judges, no judging and no winning anyone over, hence no competition. :P

I had, and think I still do have, contacts with the Dev-Mag people who could supply a few if not all judges for our competition. Also the sponsors my also be able to get into the spirit of the competition and help by providing a judge.


Biggest Tasks to setup the competition:

- Gather sponsors and prizes to award the winners (sponsorship need not just be to provide prizes, but funds for other things including advertising as well)

- Advertise!!! (at least a month in advance) with Video(YouTube), Web Banners, Mag Ads(Dev-Mag, Pascal Gamer, Gamasutra, etc) and other placements everywhere - This is vital!

- Setup a system to track competition entrants (it helps to have everyone register so you have numbers to compare and track actual interest in the event)

- Write up a solid set of rules and regulations to maintain the integrity and legality of the event and allow you to use the entries to help advertise future competitions (have ALL entrants 'read' and accept agreement as part of the registration process!)

- Get judges that can run at a minimum set of system performance and specifics so as to be able to play all games that will be entered into the competition (note this within the rules for competing teams so that they know what they have to work with on the other end)


And I think that does it. :P As you can see not too much, but each one needs some attention to it so that it's done right. Barring that anyone that can do these can run the competition.

AthenaOfDelphi
11-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Well, I'm still working on this thing, so here's how it's looking at the moment...

I've secured a whole bunch of prizes from some long standing sponsors and some new ones, and I'm still working on some others.

Will has been kind enough to help me out with artwork and that kind of stuff for the competition, leaving me free to use my limited free time to work on the competition site. The development version is looking pretty good, I'm just in the process of building the competition handling side of things... ie. the bit where we setup the competition, list the prizes in the prize pool and allocate them to places and awards. I was going to try and implement team support but that isn't that important right now so that will be added in the future.

I've sketched out some rules, the other staff are going through them and giving me some feedback and they are being fleshed out. The theme.... is decided, but will not be released until a couple of days before the competition officially starts. The standard rules apply, your entry must be coded with Pascal. It can make use of pre-existing libraries, but the bulk of the code, artwork etc. must be produced specifically for the competition. Full details will be posted before the start date.

The competition itself... the plan is to have two stages. The first is a design stage which will last approximately 5 days. This will start 2 days after the theme/rules are released. After that it will be a straight run to the finish line. In terms of dates, unless things change, the rough dates are start at the beginning of July and finish at the end of September.

The judges will then be expected to mark as quick as possible against the standard categories.

There will be bonus points available... details will be posted when the rules are released.

The judges will not necessarily be from PGD, as suggested by Will, it may be a good idea to have independent people to judge the competition, so we'll try it this year. Machine specs of the judges... these will be available to you via the competition site, so they won't be published anywhere.

I'm still chasing prize sponsors, and I can confirm that I've lined up a sponsor for the IGF :)

So, thats it from me for now... get a stock pile of your favourite beverage and prepare for a frantic summer of code!

User137
11-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Personally i'm more into casual competitions without rewards. It's that i wouldn't want competition to feel too grand and put such a pressure on... Something that might be constantly going on, could give more experience in game programming to many with that little motivation which is fun instead of money/etc. Maybe some contests would allow all programming languages too for publicity and activity on site. But i guess the competition site support some of those ideas too already ;)

AthenaOfDelphi
11-06-2009, 01:13 PM
Personally i'm more into casual competitions without rewards. It's that i wouldn't want competition to feel too grand and put such a pressure on... Something that might be constantly going on, could give more experience in game programming to many with that little motivation which is fun instead of money/etc. Maybe some contests would allow all programming languages too for publicity and activity on site. But i guess the competition site support some of those ideas too already ;)


My intention is to make the competition site capable of dealing with a variety of competitions, with the aim of allowing smaller fun+kudos only competitions to take place more frequently through out the year.

RE: Pressure... my original plans for this years competition included stages. I personally liked stages, but after talking with Will, basically stages are gone... submit your idea document and then present your game by the closing date... nice and casual... and you get the chance to win some nice goodies as a bonus :D So... in short... you better enter ;)