Graphics libraries.

[Chesso]

Hello,

I have over time dabbled ever so slightly using UnDelphiX, OpenGL and I think Asphyre at some point.

I am currently using UnDelphiX and Delphi 2010, and aside from a strange issue (the window shakes at certain points of rendering at particular stages of the game, not sure why), I am looking for advice on a good graphics library to use.

What do you all think is the most stable and quickest one around? I know a lot of people don't like UnDelphiX much in general, but aside from the above quirk, installation and getting it going is really simple, but I have a feeling it may hold me back in the future.

I use BASS for sound, so I am not concerned about that.

[Andru]

Everybody who develops own library will propose his work, I think so... and yes, I have the one library - ZenGL (http://zengl.org). Simple(as for me and some other people), fast enough, cross-platform and still "grows up" :) Also there is a set of classes - EasyZenGL (http://zengl.org/forum/index.php/topic,9.0.html)(which are appeared on official "international" forum of ZenGL).

About other libraries, I can remember only Andorra2D (http://andorra.sourceforge.net/)(but seems it's not in development anymore, due to this topic (http://sourceforge.net/projects/andorra/forums/forum/633393/topic/3908632)). Pretty good Windows only DanJet X and newer reincarnation - Gen2 (http://code.google.com/p/gen2gdk/). Also there is a Delphi port of HGE (http://relishgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2943)(but I don't know how stable it). Some other lib's, which I didn't learn deep enough(e.g. Phoenix 2D Game Engine, because it too bloated(wants too many libs as for me), or PyroGine SDK with 9Mb lib O_o) you can find here (http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/forumdisplay.php?7-Game-Libraries-and-Components) on PGD :) Hmmm... I think PGD must make the list of libraries.

But I will give you an advice - try these libraries by your self and choose which one you like better. Don't afraid to spend some time learning how they works and so on :)

[wodzu]

I've used a lot of UnDelphiX and then I switched for the Asphyre. If you don't like to build everything from scratch I would recommend the Asphyre. Very fast, never had any problems with it.
However, UnDelphiX is more straightforward and probably allows you to write simpler games faster.

[Chesso]

Not sure if I can use Apshyre, in the past they did not have support for it, and their latest updates adds support for XE only..... skipping me out lol.

[wodzu]

Ah yes, there was a problem with compatibility with older versions. But now you have support for FreePascal and Lazarus. So Delphi is not the problem anymore:)

[Chesso]

Nah it supports BDS 2006, 2007, Delphi XE...... Delphi 2010 is in between 2007 and XE lol.

For some reason they haven't supported it at all. Which sucks for me because I went from D7 straight to 2010 (they also did not support D7, which is why I finally moved up....) :P.

[wodzu]

I meant that you don't have to use Delphi to use Asphyre:) But of course if you prefer Delphi then you have a problem.

The creator of Asphyre supported Delphi 7 but then resigned because he liked the operator overloading which was included in BDS 2006.

Have you tried to compile it under Delphi 2010? Delphi XE doesn't include any new language improvements as far as I remember...

[vgo]

Borrowing this thread for my own query. :)

I'm looking for a 2D graphics library for my new project:
- Compatible with Delphi XE, compatibility with older versions and FPC/Lazarus is a plus
- Good GUI system is absolutely necessary
- Unicode support

[wodzu]

Asphyre has support for GUI but never tried it so I can't say anything more about this.

[vgo]

Asphyre Sphinx seems to be the latest version and it doesn't have GUI. Asphyre 4.1 has, but it's from 2007...

[wodzu]

Sorry, I assumed that if older version had the GUI then the newer should it have too.

[WILL]

Are you concerned with supporting multiple platforms? Either way, have you considered SDL with OpenGL? If you have already tried OpenGL or dabbled with it, you'll be familiar with some of the concepts and SDL is great for all kinds of game input, window management and of course image format handling.

Not many '3rd party' game libraries will support multiple platforms, at least as of yet, so if that is a concern then there is almost only the one alternative SDL and OpenGL.

[czar]

The problem I used to have with OpenGL based solutions is that many people (users) did not have reasonable OpenGl drivers installed. So unless they had a ATI or NVIDIA video card they tended to have problems. How is that these days? Does windows 7 come with proper OpenGL support?

[WILL]

As far as I know, all modern computers should have graphics cards that have OpenGL drivers. At least OpenGL 1.x or so. Depending on the type of 3D features you wish to use basic OpenGL from 1.x or 2.x even should be supported by most, if not all cards now-a-days. Especially if they are running a Mac or a Linux system.

[Chesso]

Are you sure Sphinx does not GUI? I also assumed newer version would, you might need to post around on forum or contact developer(s).

I suppose if there is not much difference between XE and 2010 it might be alright, I haven't tried it yet but will when I have time.

On the other hand I hear a lot around here about SDL, which I wouldn't mind at least test driving for drawing, obviously not the new 1.3 or w/e as commercial applications need licenses and all sorts of weird and wonderful things, not something I am interested in this stage. How do I get started with SDL and Delphi 2010 just with basic 2D drawing of images, preferably in a fashion similar to UnDelphiX? Also performance wise does it do better than UnDelphiX if anyone knows?

[WILL]

How do I get started with SDL and Delphi 2010 just with basic 2D drawing of images, preferably in a fashion similar to UnDelphiX? Also performance wise does it do better than UnDelphiX if anyone knows?

JEDI-SDL is amazingly easy to use in Delphi. I assume you are running Windows? If you happen to be running on a Mac I can probably hook you up with a working copy that is not yet published. Dom is working on a release soon. Get it at SourceForge here http://sourceforge.net/projects/jedi-sdl/

I use this version currently for all my Windows-based games. It works great and is very stable. You don't need OpenGL to get started with it, but it comes bundled with it so if you want to make the move, it'll be easy.

After you've gotten the library and unzipped it with all your other Pascal projects or where ever else you want it to reside, check out the Free Pascal meets SDL (http://www.freepascal-meets-sdl.net/) site for some basics on how to use the library. It's super easy to get started working with it. In fact, it's even easier to use than UnDelphiX in some ways.

As long as you don't need any 3D acceleration you'll be quite happy with it I'm sure. Once you start into rotation, scaling or alpha blending, you're ready to move on to OpenGL. But first start with the basics of the SDL library of course. ;)

[Chesso]

So from what I read, it does it's own 2D magic, and also cranks out Direct3D and OpenGL, so I assume you can combine them to some extent, and basically to move on and up I will not have to change libraries or anything like that.

[Andru]

How is that these days? Does windows 7 come with proper OpenGL support?
Bad as before. Typical user with installed Windows XP/7 will have only GDI Generic GL_RENDERER. But if this user is a gamer, then official drivers could be installed. So, OpenGL is not a good solution for casual games nowadays.

[Chesso]

Hi Andru,

Just checked out your ZenGL Demo's that come with the package, looks pretty darn nice to me.

Thinking about giving it a shot this weekend, are there any special install instructions for D2010 or do I just point to all the source file directories and add w/e to uses and check demo sources.

Also, I presume it is not visual and probably does not have something similar to DXImageList, so if I were to say put my graphics in a resource file to go with executable and use a record array for information reference (having it as a list
will make changes easier as I refer to DXImagesList.Items[N] at the moment) how would I load those up ready to go (I use PNG for the small file size, but I will w/e is supported as long as it's loss less).

[Andru]

are there any special install instructions for D2010
No, all you need is "just point to all the source file directories and add w/e to uses"(here the "full" instruction (http://zengl.org/wiki/doku.php?id=compilation#static_compilation_of_appl ication_with_zengl)). But this way is for advanced programming mostly, so you can just compile a dll(go to src/Delphi and open ZenGL.dproj) and use it with only one uses - zglHeader(don't forget to put dll with executable, and execute function zglLoad, as showed in demo01).


I presume it is not visual and probably does not have something similar to DXImageList
Yes, ZenGL doesn't use or provide something related with VCL, it's just a library. So, you need to use only your variables/arrays/etc. with ZenGL types(e.g. zglPTexture is for "images"). What about using only one executable, I have never thought about this... all my resources I have always carried with executable in directory data :) Maybe this weekend I will try to make a demo with loading resources inside executable.

PS: Oh, almost forgot - with Delphi 2010 there is a problem with function key_GetText, but it has already fixed in svn and I will update ZenGL this weekend.

[WILL]

So from what I read, it does it's own 2D magic, and also cranks out Direct3D and OpenGL, so I assume you can combine them to some extent, and basically to move on and up I will not have to change libraries or anything like that.

Yes and then not quite. SDL is it's own graphics API, input API, sound API, etc... You can use OpenGL with it, but you have to set it up as such. It then has functions that will help support OpenGL textures(sprites, etc) and different image formats, but that's it. The setup is a little different. There aren't any functions that help with Direct3D nor does it actually use it at all.

It is it's own hardware interface for graphics.

This does not mean that you cannot use Direct3D for graphics just because you are using SDL for user input and sound, but it's nicer to use OpenGL as it integrates better with it.

That said, go to the Free Pascal meets SDL site and just read about the setup instructions. It tells you everything you need to know. It's super easy to use and I know of at least one high school that uses it to introduce kids to CS using Pascal that is catching onto it quite fast. :)

[code_glitch]

However, I now find that OpenGl is just that much nicer than sdl. I can't quite put the words on it but the closest mumbo-jumbo to that would be that opengl is more refined. However, since it is that much more complex, I figured I'd come up with Prometheus to make it 'nice' or 'pretty'... And to be honest, I now officially use it as the basis for everything I code. ! line to get a window... 1 line to load an image, 1 line to rotate said image and etc. It's just so much nicer. And did I mention that thanks to using OpenGL, I get near OpenGl speeds?

But my point here is, sdl and opengl were practically made for each other. I think it is now fairly widely accepted that sdl isnt the fastest hare in the err... hare-holey-house-thing-that-looks-like-a-rabbits (word of the day there ;)) but it offers so many formats to load from, and OpenGL gives you that near baremetal speed Sdl doesnt, without many formats though. Combine the 2 though, and its as close to perfection as you are ever going to get.

So I guess what I am saying, is learn Sdl, Learn OpenGL, and then once that is done, take it a step further by mixing the two. Its an absolutely amazing mix. So basically, you want a graphics library? I say, make your own... You'll know what its designed for, who its designed for and it will be designed to suit your needs. Yay.

cheers,
code_glitch

PS: Sorry for the long post. =/

[czar]

Bad as before. Typical user with installed Windows XP/7 will have only GDI Generic GL_RENDERER. But if this user is a gamer, then official drivers could be installed. So, OpenGL is not a good solution for casual games nowadays.


Shame that nothing has changed. It is not in M$ to support OpenGL. I stopped with OpenGL based libraries because I was continually having to support people with the generic drivers.

[Andru]

I stopped with OpenGL based libraries because I was continually having to support people with the generic drivers.
Yeah, the only reason why I created ZenGL version with Direct3D renderer is commercial projects, where publishers want Direct3D instead of OpenGL. But I like OpenGL more than Direct3D, and OpenGL can run on my Linux and other OS's :)


So I guess what I am saying, is learn Sdl, Learn OpenGL, and then once that is done, take it a step further by mixing the two. Its an absolutely amazing mix. So basically, you want a graphics library? I say, make your own... You'll know what its designed for, who its designed for and it will be designed to suit your needs. Yay.
And as always, it will take you much time, which you can spend to develop game instead of library... but yeah, developing bicycles is always fun! :)

[WILL]

To what version of OpenGL are you guys coding that requires all these drivers that users wouldn't have an a current system? I've never had an issue with OpenGL on any of my XP-based systems unless the graphics card was ancient. What are these people running Windows 3.11? :)

[Chesso]

Strange problem with ZenGL.

I followed the steps though, I added one with just Delphi folder available (not i386 etc) then the rest i386-Win32, and when I try and run a program from within the IDE, any program (doesn't have to be related to anything within ZenGL) and it
refuses because zlib cannot find LibC.dcu (which does not exist in the package)?

[MuteClown]

To what version of OpenGL are you guys coding that requires all these drivers that users wouldn't have an a current system? I've never had an issue with OpenGL on any of my XP-based systems unless the graphics card was ancient. What are these people running Windows 3.11? :)

Thats what i was thinking.

Most Computers now from common companies such as HP and Acer come with the additional drivers. I think the only one im not sure on is if the computer is using an intel GPU, which Dell seems to like.

[Andru]

Chesso
For Delphi you must point only to lib/zlib/delphi and souce code of ZenGL. And as I said before - better compile dll and use it instead of separate units.
PS: but maybe you choose wrong place to point paths. Open one of demos and look where I set paths for Delphi 2010 :)


Most Computers now from common companies such as HP and Acer come with the additional drivers.
In 2009 I bought my HP laptop, and guess what? There was no official drivers for Radeon HD 4650 inside(installed, I mean), so my system didn't support OpenGL and DxVA for video decoding using videocard.

WILL
You think so because you are programmer, a lot of people uses computers without understanding whole "system stuff", and because of that publishers prefer Direct3D. And if your game is not something very incredible, you will loose a lot of costumers because of OpenGL. But all this is related to casual/small games.

[code_glitch]

Can I just give some encouragement here: I have recently had to install windows 7 on my sis' PC... It has an old ATI radeon 9600 (mobility) series, which M$ has drivers for although ATI says it has not made them? (WDDM 1.1 ones). I am very pleased to announce that that card has OpenGl support with its' drivers out out of the box. Its unclear what version but it handled everything I tested on it. The same applies to my nVidia mobile card, ATI HD 4330, and those GMA 4500MHD chips. The importance being that I see every new chipset now has OpenGL support out of the box, meaning that the future has quite a bright light for OpenGL. Especially on those GMA chips by intel: they run OpenGL at about twice the speed as Direct3D.... Thank you intel. Although I still stand by what I said: dual core is not low end...

[Chesso]

I think I got it now, also took a look at that sprite demo with the penguins code, looks pretty sweet.

And if you can make it possible to load images etc from internal resources instead of external files that would be awesome, but loading from memory not saving resource as some kind of stream to file first (that's sucky way of doing it).

I managed to get BASS to load audio resources from memory, while most people did the save resource to file method using streams or something, I got it working straight from memory. I found it pointless to have it as an internal resource
and loaded into memory only to save it to file and then load it again..... lol.

[LP]

Are you sure Sphinx does not GUI? I also assumed newer version would, you might need to post around on forum or contact developer(s).

I suppose if there is not much difference between XE and 2010 it might be alright, I haven't tried it yet but will when I have time.
Asphyre Sphinx works for Delphi 2006-2010 and XE, it also works on XE Starter and FPC/Lazarus. Attempts were made to port it to Mac OS X, but no success so far (have no decent Mac OS X machine at hand).

There is a good GUI option for Asphyre posted here (http://dev.ixchels.net/forum/thread2217.html). In addition, an updated GUI based on the one provided in Asphyre eXtreme was ported for our game project and redesigned, but it's not yet published (it will be after the game's release - I have yet to fix few menus and shortcuts in the GUI designer).

[WILL]

In 2009 I bought my HP laptop, and guess what? There was no official drivers for Radeon HD 4650 inside(installed, I mean), so my system didn't support OpenGL and DxVA for video decoding using videocard.

From the sounds of it, the system didn't support anything unless you installed drivers anyhow. How is OpenGL separate in this situation?


You think so because you are programmer, a lot of people uses computers without understanding whole "system stuff", and because of that publishers prefer Direct3D. And if your game is not something very incredible, you will loose a lot of costumers because of OpenGL. But all this is related to casual/small games.

I'd have to respectfully disagree. If I was stuck installing something for OpenGL, sure my computer knowledge might have played a factor, but as some guy just playing OpenGL-based games I didn't have to install anything. Maybe I'm just lucky and only ever used computers that had graphics cards with proper drives that came with it?

That's possible, but I seriously doubt that because someone who doesn't know much about computers and didn't have their system setup properly is a reason to blame OpenGL. :)

The same can be said for DirectX too. I could just as easily blindly accuse Direct3D of being poor for casual games because the user might not have their graphics drivers properly setup. We might as well erase all the crosswalks because some people don't look where they are going. :P

To that point, I've kept hearing about issues with OpenGL support on various cards. If it's an issue with later versions of OpenGL (ie the current 4.x) then only use the version of OpenGL that everyone will be guaranteed to have. If it's a casual game that you are making then you don't need all those new features to make your game look good. Games were quite impressive with 1.2 and 2.1 alone if I recall correctly.

[WILL]

Asphyre Sphinx works for Delphi 2006-2010 and XE, it also works on XE Starter and FPC/Lazarus. Attempts were made to port it to Mac OS X, but no success so far (have no decent Mac OS X machine at hand).

I can be your guinea pig? I have the latest (until Lion comes out) Mac OS X. What was left to make compatible? :) I assume that it was all OpenGL equivalents to DirectX, correct?

[Andru]

How is OpenGL separate in this situation?
If you look posts before, you will discover that my answer was to MuteClown, and he said that OpenGL now works out of the box with Windows standard drivers, but this is not true... :)


That's possible, but I seriously doubt that because someone who doesn't know much about computers and didn't have their system setup properly is a reason to blame OpenGL.
I didn't blame the OpenGL. The same thing I can said, e.g., about Linux. Everybody blame Linux for some problems, but for real, problems only with that people who are lazy and with bad knowledges... Or one more - Linux is bad, because there is no Photoshop, which is not a problem of this OS, this problem is related to Adobe :) But all this doesn't change the situation - many people don't use Linux, and many people don't install official drivers for supporting OpenGL :) And one more about newer Windows. When I released ZenGL 0.2 and post this on lazarus website I got this feedback (http://lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,12280.msg62780.html#msg62780). As always problem is a drivers. At work I have some computers with Windows 7 and Intel videocards(965 Express), which are doesn't support OpenGL out of the box... I spent some time before I found drivers(design of Intel website is almost unusable :)), and after installation I get some bugs in their driver with OpenGL, but this is another story how Intel, NVIDIA and AMD make problems in their drivers for OpenGL developers... :)

[WILL]

Don't know what to tell ya. :) Maybe I'm just lucky or people and companies need to stop using crappy graphics card drivers. ;)

[Andru]

Maybe I'm just lucky or people and companies need to stop using crappy graphics card drivers.
Maybe you are lucky because you have installed special version of Windows? :) Anyway, as the saying goes - "Client is always right", so if you want to run your game on most range of computers with Windows, it's better to use Direct3D. But this is sad...

[czar]

so if you want to run your game on most range of computers with Windows, it's better to use Direct3D. But this is sad...

I agree if you are making a program for the general public then expect to have to deal with lots of people who have no idea about computers whatsoever. I do my own helpdesk for Vision Board Studio (www.visualiseyourgoals.com) and it is amazing the level computer skills that people have. Over the years I have made the software as idiot proof as possible. However, I cannot make it damn idiot proof so occasionally I still need to deal with with some very confused people. ;)

[vgo]

There is a good GUI option for Asphyre posted here (http://dev.ixchels.net/forum/thread2217.html).

I can't find a download link on the forums for that?

[dazappa]

Are you sure Sphinx does not GUI? I also assumed newer version would, you might need to post around on forum or contact developer(s).

I suppose if there is not much difference between XE and 2010 it might be alright, I haven't tried it yet but will when I have time.

On the other hand I hear a lot around here about SDL, which I wouldn't mind at least test driving for drawing, obviously not the new 1.3 or w/e as commercial applications need licenses and all sorts of weird and wonderful things, not something I am interested in this stage. How do I get started with SDL and Delphi 2010 just with basic 2D drawing of images, preferably in a fashion similar to UnDelphiX? Also performance wise does it do better than UnDelphiX if anyone knows?
The licensing for 1.3 is fairly straightforward. If you're linking an application dynamically against it, it's free like it currently is. If you want to link statically, it requires a commercial license. In any case, I doubt it'll even get done by the end of this year :P

[code_glitch]

OK, from what I've read above it usually seems to be D3d or bad stuff... Now, purely hypothetically (I'm not offering anything yet) but I would deduce 2 things: The target OS is windows and the problem is lack/old versions of OpenGl installed on them is it not? I have yet to see a setup that is lacking OpenGl support - period, but drivers I will admit to seeing some weird stuff happening from time to time. Thus it is a software issue. And on windows is that not the case of just a few dll files?

I'm just curious but would it be worth whipping up a 'Universal OpenGl Runtime' installer to distribute with OpenGl games? That would mean just getting all of OpenGL's resources and packing them up. It might be larger than expected, but come on guys/gals: how in gods name could it be larger than d3d? or slower for that matter. Anyone here have less than 64mb free HDD space? No thought not (if you're running windows on that kudos to you and a quick heads up, your screen might suddenly like blue).

Oh, and sdl is all compatible and likey-likey but speed (or inherent lack of it) might become an issue... Almost immediately...

[Andru]

how in gods name could it be larger than d3d?
Not in all cases needed to install full and latest version of DirectX... :)


'Universal OpenGl Runtime' installer to distribute with OpenGl games?
This installer will violate a license of NVIDIA, AMD, Intel and maybe others...

[code_glitch]

And we cannot use the open source alternatives to them? If I remember correctly there are projects to replace those proprietary drivers on GNU/Linux and etc.

[Andru]

And we cannot use the open source alternatives to them? If I remember correctly there are projects to replace those proprietary drivers on GNU/Linux and etc.
There is no problem with OpenGL in Linux... and there is no alternative of OpenGL implementation with hardware acceleration in Windows(Mesa will work only in software mode) :)

[Chesso]

Software mode is better than buggy crap or nothing at all right lol?

Unless someone decides to do it.

But don't the people who made the OpenGL spec make their own generic drivers for OS's, or they just make up a bunch of hooha and everyone else makes stuff around it..... sounds strange.

[Andru]

Chesso
Problem in Microsoft, which uses unfair competition by providing only GDI Generic renderer for OpenGL, and full support for Direct3D in standard WDM drivers...

[Chesso]

Can't they do all that themselves? Or Windows just will not allow that kind of access.

[code_glitch]

sons of... Anyway, how much of a perf hit are we talking if we go software mode? I mean I do like Mesa drivers - using them right now and they work a treat, but mind you I am on buntu 10.10 and I can't wait for 11.04, but I stand by my stuff Unity - I find absolutely horrid. Especially on a touch screen :) And I believe that WDDM benchmarks include OpenGl or something similar because when it rates your card I think it goes through that. Not extensively, but I'm sure the support is there somewhere. I think we may be in the ironic position where AMD and nVdidia cards lack support but Intel GMA chips have plenty of it... Basically: sorry, our game wont run; your' card is too good :D

[Andru]

Anyway, how much of a perf hit are we talking if we go software mode?
100-1000 times slower... :)

[WILL]

100-1000 times slower... :)

That's only if you are using generic MS Windows drivers, right?

[Andru]

That's only if you are using generic MS Windows drivers, right?
Nope, GDI Generic always shows me ~1-5fps :) I'm saying about using Mesa software rasterazation. Even with LLVM you can get those values, but this depends on videocard for comparsion, resolution and count of heavy operations, e.g. blending, shaders, etc.

[code_glitch]

Ah, so I guess we would be talking sdl speeds :p
It is I must say, quite a shame for OGL things are going this way... But as long as OGL is alive all is well, intel make it, ati and nvidia too so I will use it whenever I can and if your OS does not support it, you are in a minority (just windows). Get a proper OS<one that runs linux and some windows apps too. Ie. Get some Arch/buntu/suse and etc... And if you really want to spend some money then Mac can be good to;)

[Chesso]

Well I assume that most graphics cards, including internal will enable the user access to at least some reasonable OpenGL compatibility (hardware), maybe not out of the box but surely they can
get it from nVidia, ATI and the like (especially those 2, and they are very common).

So at the very least we can refer them to get the applicable updates drivers from the appropriate card or on-board graphic manufacturer or driver support if they have issues.

So if we can't ship them, can we identify whether what they have is good enough, and if not can we accurately point them in the right direction to obtain them?

[LP]

I can be your guinea pig? I have the latest (until Lion comes out) Mac OS X. What was left to make compatible? :) I assume that it was all OpenGL equivalents to DirectX, correct?
Thanks! Right now I'm more than 100% into releasing our game, it is a very large project and there are quite some issues to solve yet with our server (right now polishing the security), but as soon as we're done, I'll get my hands into the Mac OS X port and let you know. ;)


I can't find a download link on the forums for that?
It's very long thread and the link is on the last 5th page. I think you can find it here (http://dev.ixchels.net/forum/thread2217-5.html) (scroll down to the end).

For OpenGL compatibility discussion: I thought on Windows Vista and Windows 7 when there are no drivers installed other than Window's default, the OpenGL is supported to the version of 1.4 with the calls being redirected to Direct3D. This is somewhat slower, but it is hardware-accelerated (theoretically) and works well with desktop composition. Or am I missing something here?