turn based games

[{MSX}]

I have got working TCP server and client components working already. I'll do some work on them and get a server up and running. We can define specific messages later.

Ok.
Are you going to use pre-made components or sockets?

[{MSX}]

At the moment I just want to avoid the Interface development stuff if you are going 3D.

In effect, this is a problem (it would be for 2d also anyway )
I've nothing ready for the GUI part of the game, which could easily need a lot of work. The game as i imagine has a lot of GUIs..

[K4Z]

For this part of the game i was thinking of a managerial impostation, with no "movement" on a map or such. Much like soccer game where you handle your team before the actual match.
In your view it seems you have a map where you move to seach battles. I think it will better to keep the thing "virtual" and concentrate on the battle part.

Ah, no I was thinking just having a 2d picture, or buttons that you click to goto a town, etc, the only 3d part should be in the actuall battles. It would get to complex to have the entire game a 3d world.

About the rendering, what 3d library do you mostly use? I have a bit of experience with OpenGl, and a little more with GlXtreme.
I've just started experimenting with making a 3d Mapmaker in glXtreme, just using an array of 0's and 1's, 0 is a flat square, 1 is a raise square, trying to get a similar look to Hopmon.

[{MSX}]

Ah, no I was thinking just having a 2d picture, or buttons that you click to goto a town, etc, the only 3d part should be in the actuall battles. It would get to complex to have the entire game a 3d world.

Ah, ok, i think this too.

About the rendering, what 3d library do you mostly use? I have a bit of experience with OpenGl, and a little more with GlXtreme.
I've just started experimenting with making a 3d Mapmaker in glXtreme, just using an array of 0's and 1's, 0 is a flat square, 1 is a raise square, trying to get a similar look to Hopmon.

I use JEDI-SDL, that is OpenGL for the 3D stuff.
You can see some works of mine here and here

For the maps, we could possibly do something a little more advanced than hopmon, for example having different type of tiles (hopmon almost has only one tile).

One thing to decide is the size of the maps. I see two possibility
- big maps: this means that there are great spaces to move on, and possibly the presence of the "fog of war" covering the unseen parts.
- small maps: this means that the maps are small enought to start the "core" of the battle in one or two turns. No "fog of war" here.

I think the resulting game-play will be very different in the two way. I think the second is better for many reasons:
- it's easier to implement
- players will not get bored waiting for events.

Remember we are doing a turn based multiplayer game, where one player at turn sits without doing anything but waiting. We should avoid dead times. If they must wait for 10 turn to reach the other, with its movements covered by fog of war, they'll fall asleep. Also, i would keep the number of units in games small, maybe about five for player (this will be decided by players anyway).

The size i was thinking is about the size of the big maps of hopmon. Think that units with range weapons (bows etc), will shoot about 5 or 6 tiles far.

Before putting down the code, i think we should define better how the game should be and all the details and how to structure the code. You know, use cases, examples, etc etc Software engineering :mrgreen:

Bye

[{MSX}]

If the game is true to the X-Com/UFO type of gameplay then I'd be most interested in palying it. I may even want to beta test for you. Are you planning a 3D engine or a 2D one?

3D engine

Oh for projectile weaponry don't forget the good 'ole bow and of course the cross bow! You know what you could do for the whole R&D/buy-sell side of the game? If you replace the X-Com organization with a King's kingdom and he has sages(or wizemen) and craftsman... you can have the research and development side of things from a medival startup to a cros-breed of whoever your enemy is and the whole fantasy side of things.

This idea is good, but remember we are doing a multiplayer game.
So the whole thing of research and development will have no sense, since each match will be on it's own, much like Starcraft if you ever played it (you should )

Also, your proposal is like to require a hundred of programmers The gameplay i was thinking instead would be quite simple.

We must keep it simple The possibility for a project to reach the end of development is proportional to its simpleness
I don't want another project started and then abandoned..

[WILL]

Hmm... well I'm with you on that. But how close to X-Com style gameplay are you thinking of? Just the combat portion of it? No character development? Or would you have that take place concurrently like you have in say.. Warlords BattleCry 3(if you played it) where you retail a record of your party and their stats and they go up in level according to how well they did in battle, etc.

I mean... that is one way to reduce the required programming, yet retain alot of replay-ability? You keep your surviving characters/heroes and grow them accordingly... how you equip them is a different issue though... depends on what kind of things you'll have outside of the actual combat side of the game. 'Off-line' shops and guilds? Or something else in mind...?

[{MSX}]

Hmm... well I'm with you on that. But how close to X-Com style gameplay are you thinking of? Just the combat portion of it? No character development? Or would you have that take place concurrently like you have in say.. Warlords BattleCry 3(if you played it) where you retail a record of your party and their stats and they go up in level according to how well they did in battle, etc.

Well the X-Com gameplay will be only for combats.
The other part of the game will technically be a simple "create/join game" plus the "market" or something similar.
But your character and items will always be the same (unless you sell them or something similar), much like with Magic The Gathering, where you have your cards and choose which to use in each match.

A part from this, units could have "experience points" so that they will gain levels when they reach a certain amount of them. The higher the level, the better the unit will become.
Experience points and levels are mantained between games.

I mean... that is one way to reduce the required programming, yet retain alot of replay-ability? You keep your surviving characters/heroes and grow them accordingly... how you equip them is a different issue though... depends on what kind of things you'll have outside of the actual combat side of the game. 'Off-line' shops and guilds? Or something else in mind...?

Well you'll keep your equipments between games (maybe with some limitations). If you've a potion and you use it on a game, you'll have it back when you finish the match and start another.
Maybe this sound strange, but i'd like to make it something like Magic for the "trading" part.
I'd like this gameplay, the only issue is that it requires a big amount of characters and items to make it wide enought.

Another possibility is to limit usage of things.. for example: you use a potion and you loose it forever If you want another, you must buy it. Also swords and other equip will have a durability and get worst with time until it finally break.

What do you think ?

[WILL]

Hmm... well I'm with you on that. But how close to X-Com style gameplay are you thinking of? Just the combat portion of it? No character development? Or would you have that take place concurrently like you have in say.. Warlords BattleCry 3(if you played it) where you retail a record of your party and their stats and they go up in level according to how well they did in battle, etc.

Well the X-Com gameplay will be only for combats.
The other part of the game will technically be a simple "create/join game" plus the "market" or something similar.
But your character and items will always be the same (unless you sell them or something similar), much like with Magic The Gathering, where you have your cards and choose which to use in each match.

A part from this, units could have "experience points" so that they will gain levels when they reach a certain amount of them. The higher the level, the better the unit will become.
Experience points and levels are mantained between games.

Yup that sounds like a great sort of system to me. You could use a sort of simplified ranking system like they use in X-Com where the more kills, etc you have the higher they 'promote' you. Each unit class having their own rank titles? That'd be neat keep your heroes/units unique... Naming system would be cool too. Name your characters so you can individually keep track of them. It'll allow you to hone your party and ultimately make it more fun to keep playing and playing to improve your characters/army/party as you play the game.

I mean... that is one way to reduce the required programming, yet retain alot of replay-ability? You keep your surviving characters/heroes and grow them accordingly... how you equip them is a different issue though... depends on what kind of things you'll have outside of the actual combat side of the game. 'Off-line' shops and guilds? Or something else in mind...?

Well you'll keep your equipments between games (maybe with some limitations). If you've a potion and you use it on a game, you'll have it back when you finish the match and start another.
Maybe this sound strange, but i'd like to make it something like Magic for the "trading" part.
I'd like this gameplay, the only issue is that it requires a big amount of characters and items to make it wide enought.

Another possibility is to limit usage of things.. for example: you use a potion and you loose it forever If you want another, you must buy it. Also swords and other equip will have a durability and get worst with time until it finally break.

What do you think ?

I think that perishable items should be just that... use them and they are gone... This includes potions, one time use scrolls, staff charges, arrows(this fits with a squad-type combat game as you can purchase different types and even magic) Spells well thats up to you how you want to have your spell system... MP or per charge usage. Weapons having a integrity or damage value it kinda cool. Works well for so many other games; Diablo 1/2, Sierra's Betral at Krondor, and others. Plus it adds a touch of 'character' to your party... how battle weary they are, etc... recouperating costs, etc.

I think that you should be able to hire new bottom level(Level 1) characters and then as you go into combat you can pick a party to do battle out of all of your lot of retainers(or army/guild, etc) and those that gain experience in battle go up in level and develop as individual 'heroes'. Make a character generator and get random stats as you would when hiring a new 'Soldier' in X-Com... You can have a non-multiplayer guild and shop that you visit to hire and purchase people and weapons/armour/items, etc... but you gain no gold so to continue to equip and build your army you have to battle other players armies... you start out with some money when you create a 'new party' or profile, just enough to make a starting party. Maybe the server options will allow you to find beginner games only when you start out? It might help to fix that experience gap issue... or set points level maximums for some games the player sets up...?

[{MSX}]

Yup that sounds like a great sort of system to me. You could use a sort of simplified ranking system like they use in X-Com where the more kills, etc you have the higher they 'promote' you. Each unit class having their own rank titles? That'd be neat keep your heroes/units unique... Naming system would be cool too. Name your characters so you can individually keep track of them. It'll allow you to hone your party and ultimately make it more fun to keep playing and playing to improve your characters/army/party as you play the game.

For the names, no problem Everyone will be able to call his characters "Eriken" and then use them as cannon fodder :mrgreen:

About the ranking, it depends on how we distinguish between "types" of characters.
My original idea was that there are two types of characters: men and creatures.
- Men are all equals. The differ only for random stats. Then, you equip them with different things (which make them really different).
- Creatures are all differents. A dog, a wolf, a goblin, a ghost, etc. They don't use items.
You can then have a party of men and creatures mixed as you like..

This would be easy to implement.. For example, you could use the same animation set for each man, that is very good
The only problem is that it is a little limitative and rigid.

We could expand it in some ways.. for example different classes of mans:
humans, dwarfs, undead, etc.

This needs a bit of brainstorming i think
Only, since this is main point of the game, it must be easy to build.. we should be able to create lots of characters and items..
We cannot have a complete set of animations for each type of character.. It will take too work to do one..

Anyway i'm not very happy with this solution.. any hint ?

Ah just to be clear, for animations i mean 3d model animations that will be used in the 3d combat scene. These are not connected to the gameplay.

Example of animation i can think:

for man:
:arrow: stand
:arrow: walk
:arrow: hit
:arrow: dead
:arrow: attack generic
:arrow: attack_sword (attack with something like a sword, axe, or such)
:arrow: attack_bow (attack with bows and the like)
:arrow: attack_spear (some kind of attack with spears, alabards, tridents, etc)
:arrow: use object
:arrow: cast spell
:arrow: throw something

for creatures:
:arrow: stand
:arrow: walk
:arrow: hit
:arrow: dead
:arrow: custom attack

I think that perishable items should be just that... use them and they are gone... This includes potions, one time use scrolls, staff charges, arrows(this fits with a squad-type combat game as you can purchase different types and even magic)

Ok, that could be good. Only, i fear that people will be tempted to choose only non-perishables to avoid the continue expense of replenishing. Who will use a bow if it always require to buy arrows? It's better a nice sword
We could possibly make arrows and the like very cheap.

I think that you should be able to hire new bottom level(Level 1) characters and then as you go into combat you can pick a party to do battle out of all of your lot of retainers(or army/guild, etc) and those that gain experience in battle go up in level and develop as individual 'heroes'. Make a character generator and get random stats as you would when hiring a new 'Soldier' in X-Com... You can have a non-multiplayer guild and shop that you visit to hire and purchase people and weapons/armour/items, etc... but you gain no gold so to continue to equip and build your army you have to battle other players armies... you start out with some money when you create a 'new party' or profile, just enough to make a starting party. Maybe the server options will allow you to find beginner games only when you start out? It might help to fix that experience gap issue... or set points level maximums for some games the player sets up...?

Yes, that's about what i think

For the match, to keep opponents balanced, i've thought to use a tecnique like Warhammer: each characted and item has a value based on its power. When you build an army, you sums all values and get the army value.
When players will create a game, they can set a max value for entrants.
For example i can create a game for armies of no more than 200 points.

[WILL]

Yup that sounds like a great sort of system to me. You could use a sort of simplified ranking system like they use in X-Com where the more kills, etc you have the higher they 'promote' you. Each unit class having their own rank titles? That'd be neat keep your heroes/units unique... Naming system would be cool too. Name your characters so you can individually keep track of them. It'll allow you to hone your party and ultimately make it more fun to keep playing and playing to improve your characters/army/party as you play the game.

For the names, no problem Everyone will be able to call his characters "Eriken" and then use them as cannon fodder :mrgreen:

About the ranking, it depends on how we distinguish between "types" of characters.
My original idea was that there are two types of characters: men and creatures.
- Men are all equals. The differ only for random stats. Then, you equip them with different things (which make them really different).
- Creatures are all differents. A dog, a wolf, a goblin, a ghost, etc. They don't use items.
You can then have a party of men and creatures mixed as you like..

This would be easy to implement.. For example, you could use the same animation set for each man, that is very good
The only problem is that it is a little limitative and rigid.

We could expand it in some ways.. for example different classes of mans:
humans, dwarfs, undead, etc.

I think what you are trying to bring up here is different races. I think that races are a great idea... esp. if you could mix and match races available for hire... OR it is somehow randomly factored into it, but with a ballance... Maybe you pick your Kindom's Default Race and have a mild selection from that...

As for creatures as upposed to 'men' I've never been too keen on the usage of animals in RPGs... Mind you maybe using a dragon or some other summoned monster might be different. But then we're getting into spells that summon temporary NPCs for the battle rather than characters that you keep for later.

This needs a bit of brainstorming i think
Only, since this is main point of the game, it must be easy to build.. we should be able to create lots of characters and items..
We cannot have a complete set of animations for each type of character.. It will take too work to do one..

Anyway i'm not very happy with this solution.. any hint ?

Ah just to be clear, for animations i mean 3d model animations that will be used in the 3d combat scene. These are not connected to the gameplay.

Example of animation i can think:

for man:
:arrow: stand
:arrow: walk
:arrow: hit
:arrow: dead
:arrow: attack generic
:arrow: attack_sword (attack with something like a sword, axe, or such)
:arrow: attack_bow (attack with bows and the like)
:arrow: attack_spear (some kind of attack with spears, alabards, tridents, etc)
:arrow: use object
:arrow: cast spell
:arrow: throw something

for creatures:
:arrow: stand
:arrow: walk
:arrow: hit
:arrow: dead
:arrow: custom attack

In the game Dungeon Seige there is a way that they use 3D objects/models so that when you change say.. to a different helmet from the one you have on, it'll change your characters appearance seemingly my merging a different model or 'hat model' on oyur character's head.. same with the shirt/pants, boots, gloves, items/weapons in hands, etc... If you could learn this technique and how to do it nice and smoothly I think it'll offer you the solution you need for all these massive amounts of combinations, rather than trying to model each and every type of combo you can think of yourself. Plus it'll allow you to make different styles for your A) Characters; Different body colors, heads(hair no hair, elven ears, beards, scars, etc), body type, hands, etc. and B) Items Different styles of helmets and armour + items to give that sort of 'bling' factor.

Now combine the body parts to the character generator when you hire new men/women to your army and you get a pretty cool in-depth way to create unique armies with individual personalities for each. Merging these modeled parts into your character object will allow this, plus save your butt from a huge pain-staking process.

I think that perishable items should be just that... use them and they are gone... This includes potions, one time use scrolls, staff charges, arrows(this fits with a squad-type combat game as you can purchase different types and even magic)

Ok, that could be good. Only, i fear that people will be tempted to choose only non-perishables to avoid the continue expense of replenishing. Who will use a bow if it always require to buy arrows? It's better a nice sword
We could possibly make arrows and the like very cheap.

Well thats good in a way.. because if the guy doesn't buy and archers or anything then you can just use yours you mow his ass down before he can reach you because he didn't ballance his forces out very well. It plays into tactics and techniques with resource management. So it's good! But yes, you must of course balance he costs of different weapons, ammos and the like. But as you get more powerful arrows or swords and armour, you'll need to raise the amount it's worth.

I think that you should be able to hire new bottom level(Level 1) characters and then as you go into combat you can pick a party to do battle out of all of your lot of retainers(or army/guild, etc) and those that gain experience in battle go up in level and develop as individual 'heroes'. Make a character generator and get random stats as you would when hiring a new 'Soldier' in X-Com... You can have a non-multiplayer guild and shop that you visit to hire and purchase people and weapons/armour/items, etc... but you gain no gold so to continue to equip and build your army you have to battle other players armies... you start out with some money when you create a 'new party' or profile, just enough to make a starting party. Maybe the server options will allow you to find beginner games only when you start out? It might help to fix that experience gap issue... or set points level maximums for some games the player sets up...?

Yes, that's about what i think

For the match, to keep opponents balanced, i've thought to use a tecnique like Warhammer: each characted and item has a value based on its power. When you build an army, you sums all values and get the army value.
When players will create a game, they can set a max value for entrants.
For example i can create a game for armies of no more than 200 points.

Yeah... thats an excellent idea on that. Each item has a 'Army Points' value to it.. and you can only take into combat the amount that you set... this may include your men/women aswell. Depending on the level of the characters thats how much they are worth too. Keep in mind that though each member of your army will have their equiped weapons there should be also a sort of cache of weapons and items that your 'kingdom' or army will have in surplus before you give them you your people [size=9px](ala. the Squad Game style of play, only in X-Com the items were annoyingly reset each time you sent them back out which made it annoying to try to match weapons with the member's individual tallents)[/size]

Well this idea is coming along nicely... I'd never have thought that I'd see the day when another Squad Game, nor a Fantasy/RPG tyle squad game would come to pass in this era of computer games.