Vista will CRIPPLE GL!

[Robert Kosek]

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cg...c;f=12;t=000001

Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

* OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
* OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
* No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

What can you do?

1. Write to your preferred ISV, hardware developer or OEM and tell them to bring this up with Microsoft (e.g. 3Dlabs, ATI, Intel, Matrox, NVIDIA, HP, Dell)
2. Bring this issue up on other developer and tech-related web sites. If you have a personal blog or podcast, talk about the issue there. Windows Vista might end up being a great product, but not if OpenGL is crippled
3. Post your comments to this message board (please no Microsoft bashing - Just make it clear that Windows needs to stay a great platform for the OpenGL API and offer any suggestions)

Not good at all. Most games use DX on windows, sure, but DX is a total pain to progam with... I've tried. GL is easier, faster and looks almost as good. And besides, MS making it impractical to use another API is like forcefully making a monopoly! No Vista for me, for certain!

[{MSX}]

And besides, MS making it impractical to use another API is like forcefully making a monopoly!

Umm that's strange, Microsoft never did such things.. kind of
For me, i'll keep my Linux and i'll keep programming in opengl.

[Traveler]

I wonder if such a thing is allowed.
If M$ continues with this approach they'll soon face anti-competitive lawsuits.

[WILL]

Somehow I forsee Microsoft's Windows Vista going the way of Nintendo's N64.

For those of you that don't know the history, Nintendo forced game developers that wanted to make games for the N64 to make games for a really crummy system that bombed hard upon release. This sort of force your partner's hands planning is what put Nintendo's home console market in the situation it's in now. I can see the same sort of things happening to Windows within the next few decades...

Thats ok though.... I kinda like Linux.

[{MSX}]

Somehow I forsee Microsoft's Windows Vista going the way of Nintendo's N64.

For those of you that don't know the history, Nintendo forced game developers that wanted to make games for the N64 to make games for a really crummy system that bombed hard upon release. This sort of force your partner's hands planning is what put Nintendo's home console market in the situation it's in now. I can see the same sort of things happening to Windows within the next few decades...

i'll print this and append it on the wall.. we'll see in a few decades if you were right
i really hope so btw.

[LP]

Well, I'm not an OpenGL-lover (I think things can be done in Direct3D as easy as in OpenGL and they *might* even run 'better' 'cuz Direct3D drivers are more frequent to update) but I'm neither optimistic about Windoze Vista too.

I think since both OpenGL and Direct3D APIs provide access to hardware, they do the same thing so if OpenGL runs somehow over Direct3D, it's no big deal (it's portable, so you can always run your app elsewhere). Although it's still a non-sense, since why using a hardware API which doesn't access hardware at all? :evil:

[Robert Kosek]

I don't really like Linux at this point, can't find a good build that works with my GFX card, and for now all my games and stuff are on Windows. I hope in the future that more developers go cross-platform like UT has been.

Well, I'm not technically aware of the issue, but I do find that 2 "3D" canvasses interfere. By using DX to draw their screen canvas, then GL on top, you're bound to have issues. Face it, why can't 2 different DX apps run simultaneously?

Honestly though, I'm not getting Vista due to it's content reporting "black box". I'd rather have bugs than that, it's a breach of privacy IMO.

In the end, I hope Micro$haft goes belly up. They've "owned" the market for too long, had too little competition (competition is HEALTHY), and have gotten lazy. IF they do save themselves, I bet they'll work with a Linux-esque kernel.

[Sly]

Face it, why can't 2 different DX apps run simultaneously?

Do you mean simultaneously on current versions of Windows? We do that all the time here at work. We have the PC version of the game running, and a separate application that views models and animations. The artists often have 3DS Max or Maya running when using the model viewer. Two separate applications running simultaneously, both using Direct3D.

[Robert Kosek]

That's odd, Sly. Whenever I've tried it, the thing totally hangs. Like if the screensaver pops up when UT is minimized (for example), the whole thing just goes apart.

[tux]

i think there *is* a limit to how many 3d windows you can have open in xp. but that limit is beeing raised to a silly number for vista