Another Pascal vs. C argument

[Rodrigo Robles]

Many people make games using VERY slow things like java and javascript, so Object Pascal is a very good choice.
The C-derived languages are popular because of C language. C language became popular because is fast. Java became popular because is free. Pascal was popular because was designed by professor Wirth to be didatic and readable. C language was designed after Pascal and adds no respectable features, but an ugly sintax and a pointer-oriented design that is only good to speed optimizing. Anyway modern Object Pascal has all the features that C++ has (except for multiple inheritance that is not that useful and in Pascal is emulated by interfaces).
If the best languages became popular, people today would be using Object Pascal, Eiffel and Scala. The most popular languages are just a market choice, not a technical choice.
Also, I'm very proud of my Object Pascal 3DMMORPG project: http://sourceforge.net/projects/gamemundo/
And if my game miss features, it's my fault, because the language/framework never disappointed me.

[laggyluk]

it's easier to use existing code then reinvent the wheel and code base for C++ is huge compared to Pascal when it comes to gamedev.
Second -when looking for work in the industry Pascal is not of high demand - anyone knows of a major company using it for writing games?
For those two reasons I say that it's not optimal decision to use what we use I don't say it's a bad decision, just not best if someone wants to be a 'pro'.

[SilverWarior]

it's easier to use existing code then reinvent the wheel

It is easier to start by using existing code but then if you wan't to do something uniqe you can quickly find yourself limited by that existing code.

I don't say it's a bad decision, just not best if someone wants to be a 'pro'.

Define PRO!
Do you mean PRO as game developer which works for some AAA gaming company on some game project where great graphics, superb soudeffects are more important than actual gameplay?
Do you mean PRO as game developer which works for some AAA gaming company where metting the dedline is more important than fixing gamebreaking bugs?
Or do you mean PRO as game developer which decides to go and actually do something new and uniqe despite the fact that for achieveing this he has to write most of his code from scratch?

[laggyluk]

you know how instable c++ is?

e? not more than the person using it. harder to harness than some high level languages like c# or java but not unstable..

[SilverWarior]

While this is moving a bit away from threads topic I still have the need to say it so please do apologize me.

First for all of you who desire to get into AAA gaming industry.
It doesn't matter what programing language you use but what you have to show of to them. If you think that you will be hired by some big AAA company just becouse you know C++ think again.
You will be hired by what you can contribute to them regardles in which programing language is that written. Why?
You do know that you can use more than one programing language in one application? Easiest way is by using either dynamic or static libraries. And yes it is also posible to use more than one programming language in making single executable. All you need for this is modified linker whcich is capable of joining bytecode from different programing languages and the fact that code is written in such way so that parts of fiinal application which are written using different programing language can comunicate with each other (same variable types, comon interfaces, etc.).
Besides if you would manage to really impres some big AAA company and they are not prepared to use some Objective Pascal code in their games they will ofer you suitable training in the programing language they use and the development tools they use.
So no need in banging your head and trying to do something in C++ if you know that you can probably do that easier in Objective Pascal as Objective pascal is programming language you are much more comfortable with.

To all those of you saying that there are just some low level things that cant be done in Objective Pascal but can be done in C++
Don't BS me! (sorry for my rugh language) Objective Pascal is one of rare higher level programming languages which still alows you to go down to lovest levels when needed.
If you wan't you can still manually initialize any object, variable you wish by caling all low level cals for doing this so by yourself.
You can use C++ style like pointers if your want. Sure debuger will bug you with warnings of potentionally dangerous code for this but you can still do it.
Infact if you want you can rewrite whole RTTI part or even whole memory manager. And if you decide in rewriting default memory manager you can look at FastMM memory manager (the memory manager newest Delphi versions now use) source code for reference. http://sourceforge.net/projects/fastmm/
So don't BS me (sorry for my foul language again) that some low level stuff can't be done in Objective Pascal. They can be done but they will probably require as much code as doing theese fearures in C++ (yes code in existing libraries is still code).
The best thing of Objective Pascal is that you are not forced to do everything on lowe level as many things are already done (maybe not in most efficient way) for you but there is nothing stopping you from reinventing the wheel.

As for stability of each programming language.
Unles you are talking about high level programming languages which doesn't alow you to go down to low level (Java, C#, .NET and alike) it all depends on programer who is working with it.
So if something witten in C++ is unstable it is only becouse at some level programer or programers which worked on that thing screwed someting up.
And since when working with low level programming langugages you have to do everything by yourself it means you have to write more code for it. And more code you write more chances you have to screw up something.

The biggest drawback of low level programming languages in comparison to high level programming languages is that for achieving same thing you ned more code. And as the code amount increases so does maintaing of this code becouse it becomes more dificult to vizualize what that code does. It is much easier to vizialize what 100 lines of code does than what 1000 lines of code does even fhou the final result might be compleetly the same.
The main reason why higher level programming languages were developed in first place is to overcome this dificulties of visualizing that lots of code.
And yes most higher level programming languages can do everything that low level programming languages can do becouse they actually use parts of low level programing languages code wraped into some higher language methods just so you don't need to write all that by yourself. Instead you can simply cal one function which can do waht 100 lines of C++ code would do.


Again I would like to apologize for some bad language I used but I realy get pissed of (here I go again) when pepole start saying that one programming language is so much better than other just becouse it is used more comonly than the other as this is in most of the times far from being truth.

Anywhay in the end it all depends on programer which is using programming language and not the programming language itself.


As for costs of investments for development tools.
While price for some development tool can be perfectly acceptable by one person that doesn't mean that it will be even acceptable by someone else as their financial situations are probably not the same.
I myself bought a new version of Delphi XE2 some more than a year ago. For me that seemed as acceptable investment even thou I'm a hobby programer who hasn't managed to compleete any of his projects yet. But probably many other wouldn't agree with me as their financial situation is probably worst than mine even thou mine is not so good either.

Whatever you do in your life you will always need to put some investments into. Now what are acceptable investments is up to each individual himself. So there is no point in arguaing about that.

[Cybermonkey]

After all this is pascalgamedevelopment, right? So if we can't talk about our favourite language Pascal or Object Pascal here, where else? I can see no sense in comparing C++ and Pascal here, because it is a Pascal affine site. I thought Pascal programmers only talk about C++ because it only consists of comments {}

[paul_nicholls]

After all this is pascalgamedevelopment, right? So if we can't talk about our favourite language Pascal or Object Pascal here, where else? I can see no sense in comparing C++ and Pascal here, because it is a Pascal affine site. I thought Pascal programmers only talk about C++ because it only consists of comments {}

haha! good one
I agree, we are Pascal-ers here

[Rodrigo Robles]

it's easier to use existing code then reinvent the wheel and code base for C++ is huge compared to Pascal when it comes to gamedev.
Second -when looking for work in the industry Pascal is not of high demand - anyone knows of a major company using it for writing games?
For those two reasons I say that it's not optimal decision to use what we use I don't say it's a bad decision, just not best if someone wants to be a 'pro'.

If the goal is to get a job in the game industry (and fortunately is not my goal), Object Pascal definitively is not the way to go. AAA is still using C++, but new multiplatform markets are focusing in new tools like Unity3D and javascript.

If the goal is to make your game by the indie way, you are free to choose your tools by the technical requisites without the influence of the market.

The best developers I know are the guys that reinvent the wheel. Guys that create new, improved and personal wheels. As much third-partie code you use, you became more user and less developer.

About to be a pro, I agree with SilverWarrior that it's like a buzzword hard to define. I would prefer words like "good" or "great" to define developers that made great software/games.