PGD Site Content & Focus

[LP]

WILL, the idea you are presenting looks a lot like a "Game Development Lounge". There are a lot of different forums, each one specialized in different things. For instance, musicians usually go to ModPlug.com, because they either use ModPlug Tracker, post their music or simply ask questions to fellow trackers. Although they might, it doesn't mean they will be interested in game development.

If someone has a very specific question about isometric landscapes, math and so on, he will most likely go to gamedev and devmaster, because these are high-traffic forums with a lot of specialization too. For instance, when I had a very specific question to Direct3D behavior, I asked on GameDev, simply because the probability of getting the precise answer is much higher than doing it here (and the question was not related to Pascal in any way).

My point is that each community has its own purpose and specialization. You simply can't just put together music, graphics, programming, design, story writing and level making into a single site and hope it will go all right. You can provide much more quality to the end user of PGD by providing *only* what PGD is all about: Pascal Game Development. Pascal word explicitly tells that PGD is about Programming (not graphics art, not music tracking and not story writing or similar!)

I mean, if I read a book about 3D in OpenGL, I would explicitly look for the information related to working with 3D in OpenGL. You can fill the book with partly relevant topics like "Programming in C++", "Designing better applications", "3D Modelling with Maya" and so on, but by doing that you may find out that not many people will really bother to buy your book. I believe same thing happens here on PGD and you simply close your eyes on it.

I think it will be much better if you simply held a links archive to relevant topics like Game Design (there are many articles about this already and really, they are not specific to programming in Pascal!), but don't overbloat PGD with partly relevant or even non-relevant information.

Look at PGD constructively: how many "useful" discussions occured here on Forums in last few months? I mean, only few sections had any activity and the rest of the stuff is just sitting there like a duck, which probably nobody will even care to explore (like this tracking forum), simply because it takes time.

Just think, how long a regular PGD visitor stays on site? 10 minutes? Half an hour or two hours? And how long it takes to review all the information on this forum?

If you look for something on Google using search string like "Music Tracking" and find "Pascal Game Development" in the list. What are the odds the user will pick that link? Not very high, because of topic relevancy. The name is what it's all about!

Anyway, this thread has gone long into off-topic and I'm partly responsible of it, so I hope you guys don't mind. Also, I regret of posting that stupid joke which was way too "local" not to be understood, which in effect created the reply wave.

[WILL]

Ok we have gone WAY off topic now, thus the new split topic.


You have some very good points. And some are very good aspects to be looking at. However one thing you must consider is that the 'Pascal Game Development' site was put together to not just be a Programmer's only club. Yes, Pascal is the first word of the title, but the second two were chossen with purpose. We intend on covering ALL aspects of game development, not just programming. But, yes that will be the main focus and the site would be utterly useless without it.

Again, though with only programming, you have no project management and overall a not-too-impressive game on your hands. You need to 'bleed' some into other topics, because that is our scope.

[size=9px]This is the part I agree with you on:[/size] Now I'll admit that if you veer too far too much into some topics then you are off-balancing your whole scope and in the process losing your original focus. And in this you have to stick to ones that will help support your main focus to keep the site's content strong.

I fully intend on doing that, and in fact I have recently added some 100% programming items in the PGD Library (pending proof-reading review), which is, I think, the perfect place for all of our side-bar topics along with these non-programming forums.

Also I think that all the project management, industry or other game design related topics have a bit more value that you are letting on. In fact it's the basis and foundation for any game development project you can conceive. Otherwise I could just make it 'Pascal Game Programming' and we'd not try to push the envelope with the language nor would we be trying to grow interest in the use of Pascal-based tools.

And lastly, I don't consider GameDev.net nor DevMaster.com reasons to give up visitors becasue they have more traffic on their sites. Our target is development teams and individuals that want to use Pascal instead of the alternative. :lol: Who knows, if this site proves to be as successful as we are all trying to make it, we might not need to have 'Pascal' in the title anymore. [size=9px](But not a likely happenning for this site!)[/size]

I hope you understand my thinking on this. IF at times I seem to be trying to push really hard in a direction that seems off focus, it's because I know that you sometimes have to push twice as hard to get half the results in anything you do. That is why this site exists and that is why it has done so well. We all pushed extra hard and came up with these results. IF we only did half a job, you'd have not seen a very impressive result.


Also consider that I'm only 1/3 of the management of PGD too. I admit I like to be the innovator, push envelopes and get a little ambitious here and there. But Dom(savage) and the rest do a good job of keeping me centered and give me a reality check when I go too far. I don't think we've gone too far with the music and graphics content and forums, but I certenly will keep your points in mind about the balance of fresh content being pumped into PGD.

[WILL]

I should also ask you where you think it takes time to read new content? What is the problem with finding relavent or interesting content that is supposed to be posted and put in it's appropreate locations?

I ask so that I can make whatever improvements that I can to help with this specific issue you brought up.

[LP]

We intend on covering ALL aspects of game development, not just programming.

I'm trying to prove my point that what you are doing is not a very good idea. Perhaps I failed to see that it's useless to challange your intentions. :?

(P.S. FYI, Tracking & MODs is not part of Game Development, although the process implies optional usage of music)

Again, though with only programming, you have no project management and overall a not-too-impressive game on your hands. You need to 'bleed' some into other topics, because that is our scope.

Of course, but it doesn't mean you have to cover all these topics here. See below...

Also I think that all the project management, industry or other game design related topics have a bit more value that you are letting on.

I agree, but again you are missing my point and avoiding talking about "Music Tracking" and "Art" sections at any cost. Also, I think your argument is not valid. You could have also used "Learning to work on Windows OS is essential to be developing games on it" or "Team work and leadership is important to succeed in a game project", but the fact that some point is important in a specific context, it doesn't mean that you have to cover it "in-place".

And lastly, I don't consider GameDev.net nor DevMaster.com reasons to give up visitors becasue they have more traffic on their sites.

That's a speculation. My point was that they already cover some of the points that you try to cover here on PGD and I think they are doing better job so far (at least because they have been doing it for many years).



Finally, have you been thinking on how to make PGD community grow? Do you really believe that it will grow if you offer more "Design", "Music" and/or "Project Managment" articles/sections?

The last point, look at it from the perspective of all new-comers, who are starting with Pascal (be it Delphi or Lazarus).

[Robert Kosek]

I have to agree with Lifepower, Will. PGD is going the wrong direction. You cannot be everything to everyone, you must settle for something specific.

While articles on design, music or art may be handy, my response will always be "Show me the code". You see there's something special about the main lurkers/posters here, and it's that we're PROGRAMMERS. Not artists, not trackers - programmers. While we need both artwork and music, it's less than nothing without the code to use it. If I need artwork, then I go and find it. Same for music.

Tell me how much code there is in a discussion of generic game dynamics. Not much, I'll grant you that, it's mostly logic - but it applies to what we do and learn as game programmers. What does an artist or tracker need to know about game dynamics if they won't program? NOTHING. Same for us and articles on tracking and artwork, it's just a bunch of filler.

If you ask me, all music and artwork forums need to be merged into a "Resources Showcase"/"Resource Request" forum. If we need content, we'll ask for it. And if an artist has free stuff or a decent portfolio to show off and is looking for a project, let 'em post there. But "keep the main thing the main thing"!

This is what is so infuriating about the latest Delphi to me. C++, .NET, all kinds of things I've no intertest in - yet bundled into the package I use ... and wasting power. You're doing the same thing.

We're programmers, and while I might be able to do a fair logo here and there, it's not my thing. Show me the code, not the bitmap.


Just my $0.02 worth...

[K4Z]

Here are my random thoughts :

I've only been a member of PGD for about a year, and in that time I've been involved in two teams through PGD, working on a number of projects. Even though I consider myself a programmer first and an artist second, in both teams I'm mostly the graphic artist.

In most Art websites, a programmer will ask for an artist, and most of the time the project will fall through, or the artist leaves (Myself included).
I like how PGD combines programming with other aspects of game development, all in the one community. Instead of working for a programmer, I've been able to work closely with a programmer.

So, from my view PGD has had somewhat a success in combining the different aspects of game development, (with my favourite programming language as well) :thumbup: :thumbup:.

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It's when you separate the other parts of game development from the programming, when projects more easily fail.

I think there should be even a little more push for Artists, Trackers, etc (As WILL is trying to accomplish). Of course, PGD should remain mostly about the programming, as it is effectively the glue that holds a project together.

If you ask me, all music and artwork forums need to be merged into a "Resources Showcase"/"Resource Request" forum. If we need content, we'll ask for it.

A lot of websites do this, and I can tell you, it doesn't feel very welcoming. You need to make the Artists/etc feel equal and important within the group, or they will feel like they are doing their job for nothing (Especially so, if it's a non paying job). That's the main reason why I see so many communities fail, they don't combine the parts, they make it out to be 'Us and Them'.

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Both sides have very valid points, I'm just that little bit more for expanding PGD over all aspects of development. From what I've seen, the PGD staff have done a tremendous job creating this community and have never taken a wrong step, and I think they deserve all our support in what ever they decide to do.

All in all, every website questions it's exact purpose, and PGD has had a few of these types of threads before.

:whistle:

[LP]

In most Art websites, a programmer will ask for an artist, and most of the time the project will fall through, or the artist leaves (Myself included).
I like how PGD combines programming with other aspects of game development, all in the one community. Instead of working for a programmer, I've been able to work closely with a programmer.

Your point is valid... in different context . Working closely with a programmer means communicating with the programmer, discussing the work, see how it is being used, talk about it and so on, but... it has nothing to do with PGD!.

You know, you can work closely with a programmer via E-mail too and you can even do it on any forums. For instance, when working with LPChip (he mostly tracks music) we *always* worked closely on most our projects (in fact, we *run* Afterwarp Interactive together!) via MSN Messenger!

It's when you separate the other parts of game development from the programming, when projects more easily fail.

Are you suggesting that if PGD removes "Graphics" section, most projects made by PGD members will fail?

All in all, every website questions it's exact purpose, and PGD has had a few of these types of threads before.

Perhaps the best action would be opening a public poll where everyone can vote about it.

[K4Z]

...means communicating with the programmer, discussing the work, see how it is being used, talk about it and so on, but... it has nothing to do with PGD!.

You know, you can work closely with a programmer via E-mail too and you can even do it on any forums...

Yes I know, I have 500+ seperate gmail convos, and 50+ PMs to prove it. But PGD easily encourages teams to share there progress, and recieve valuable input from the community, a nice place to centralize a (whole) project.
But my point there was that most websites make the members of the Resource\Request sections out as Tools To Be Used When Needed, rather than valuable workers\team members.
No artist is really going to just hang around a programming specific forum doing nothing, waiting just to be used. And not give there 100% because they aren't really part of the team, more the outsider who provides the visuals.

Are you suggesting that if PGD removes "Graphics" section, most projects made by PGD members will fail?

No, I'm saying if you seperate the parts of the development (e.i into multiple websites\communities), the communication becomes hindered, and in turn a lower success rate on a project.

However, this is project forum (bound to specific project) and not a public forum (bound to Pascal Game Development community). Don't you think there is a big difference?

I don't fully understand that, isn't PGD both?

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All I'm saying is that PGD should keep reconition for all aspects of game development (Ofcource all parts can't have exactly equal share). Programming would have to stay the majority, to keep the balance, but you can't just ignore the other 70% (or so) of development untill it suits you.

:joker:

[LP]

However, this is project forum (bound to specific project) and not a public forum (bound to Pascal Game Development community). Don't you think there is a big difference?

I don't fully understand that, isn't PGD both?

I edited the post and removed this part (edit: 30 mins before you replied), thinking it's no use to pursue it.

[LP]

Programming would have to stay the majority, to keep the balance, but you can't just ignore the other 70% (or so) of development untill it suits you.

Suppose what you are saying is okay, why not adding a section to PGD about "Learning Microsoft Office"? Writing a proper documentation is very important in a game development, right?

[size=9px][sarcasm][/size]
Did you forget the guys who make a web page for your game? They would feel so lonely... Why not adding "Web Design" to PGD too, so they'll feel comfortable and the project will be "more centralized"?
[size=9px][/sarcasm][/size]

After several months, nothing is changed... *sigh*