PGD Site Content & Focus

[K4Z]

Suppose what you are saying is okay, why not adding a section to PGD about "Learning Microsoft Office"? Writing a proper documentation is very important in a game development, right?

That is a good idea, all the little things often get overlooked. I guess it's just assumed that most people know how to do them.

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Did you forget the guys who make a web page for your game? They would feel so lonely... Why not adding "Web Design" to PGD too, so they'll feel comfortable and the project will be "more centralized"?
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That's a good idea too, but most of the time it's the programmer or artist that has to handle the WebSite.

But the little sections probably won't ever get looked at if we can't atleast fill the more major parts. But I see what you mean, there's a lot more sections that would need to be addressed for a true 'Game Development' website.

[Paulius]

This has been going on for quite a while and are there any new artists here who are not Pascal programmers? Trying to be Pascal + everything else is just not attractive to neither.
Specialization is quite ok, other forums for specific packages seem to get around the same amount of traffic that PGD has.
The focus should be on what the community really is and the forums should look like someone new could actually get a competent answer or a discussion, if I was an artist I?¢_Td not be too interested in triggering a few generic good job posts from programmers.
Does anyone else except K4Z and cairnswm like this direction?

[AthenaOfDelphi]

Heres my thoughts on this...

Firstly, I'll stand up and be counted as someone who likes the current approach and I think WILL and co. deserve a big hand for their efforts so far.

A key implication from the objectors to the current format seems to be that all games are developed by teams and as such, not all members of the team will be interested in reading everything here. However, this is NOT the case. I personally am the only techy in our 'team'. Spirit, tells me how she wants the game to work, what features she wants and I make it happen. Yes, I get the complex artwork done by my brother (and one or two of our crew chip in), but the rest of it is all down to me. And to be honest, I'm sure I'm not alone in that kind of setup.

So why does this matter? Well, I have in the past tried to get information from some skill/product specific sources only to greeted with non-helpful sarcasm and in some cases outright hostility. Needless to say, as a result, I personally don't have a lot of faith in that kind of site anymore, especially as an outsider who just needs a little help from time to time. I've also found that when peeps ask questions relating to Pascal elsewhere, they can often be greeted with comments like 'Delphi is a dinosaur, you should be using C++'... hardly helpful.

PGD on the other hand is different. I know I could ask a question here and get a sensible answer or pointers to places that may have the answer. If its specifics I'm after... how do I do x, y and z with OpenGL or how can I use a mod to create mood in my game for example, I know I can post and someone will answer. And perhaps, most importantly, the answers I get will relate to Pascal... not C++ or Java etc. as is the case with so many sites and examples. I'm currently investigating the possibility of creating a graphical cross platform client for a new project... this is likely to involve creating music, sound effects, graphics etc. I don't want to spend hours trawling five or six specific sites to get answers in C++ or Java or whatever... I'd like to post a couple of questions here and get my answers in a language I can use straight away. From that perspective, PGD is excellent.

Some of these posts state that what you want to see is code... well... writing tutorials etc. takes time. I'm working on a couple now, but my own work and my job will always take priority because they bring in the money. If you want to see more code, why not start writing for PGD and help build up the parts you think are lacking?

In terms of how-to's etc, PGD already links to other sites that contain useful information and from what I've seen, doesn't recreate the wheel, except maybe to illustrate points in Pascal. There is also the point that many how-to's are written by experts in a particular field and as such, aren't always easily digestable by non-experts... The IPTables how-to's for example... I'm not a novice at networking, but they blow my mind. But IPTables is relevant to what I do as I use it to provide firewalling and routing for our LAN/game traffic, so a how-to for it written by a programmer for a programmer could be extremely useful, not just to me, but others here, and that is where a site like this can prove invaluable. Information for programmers and development teams by programmers and development teams in a language that is both relevant and that can be understood.

My final thought is that from reading these posts, it seems that the objectors expect staff to justify why we should retain the current format, without actually providing any concrete justification why it should change. Its kind of like site X provides Y so we shouldn't... if we adopted that kind of attitude in other aspects of what we do, we'd all still be playing Pong and Space Invaders, because no one would be pushing the boundaries or trying new things. Before I started reading some of the articles and tutorials on here, I'd never have dreamed of attempting to create a graphical client... now, I'm seriously considering it because I can find information about music, sound, graphics and everything else I could need in one place in a langauge I can understand, and best of all, its backed up by some very knowledgable peeps who give up some of their free time to make PGD what it is.

Stick with it guys because I think you're doing a fantastic job.

[Robert Kosek]

Some of these posts state that what you want to see is code... well... writing tutorials etc. takes time. I'm working on a couple now, but my own work and my job will always take priority because they bring in the money. If you want to see more code, why not start writing for PGD and help build up the parts you think are lacking?

I'll address this from last to first...

Simple, I'm hardly any good at programming. I can get by, sure, but mostly I know very little. And since my code is quite messy and optomized like a sloth to chasing down a cheetah... well, you can guess why I want to see the code. A quick example would be Lifepower trying his best to explain how to center the camera around an object, while I just didn't see it (it took him demonstrating how to use the code/math that it dawned on me).

However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to say is not that graphic artists or trackers are less then programmers or not an important part of the team, but why bother the programmer with a lot of the issues that the others face? Lets face it, "Jack of all trades, master of none." Quite true really. In all my years of hobbiest level work I have done mostly my own artwork, except in the realm of models - because I can't model worth beans. (You can't tell a gas can from a bit of junk in my attempts)

Even if I did have someone to back me up with artwork, I'd probably just fail anyway. I accept that I'm not a particularly good programmer, but I want to improve beyond that. So why slow myself down to learn better art techniques if I really want to code, or vice versa.

What have my posts in the "resources" areas been? Not much, maybe a "good job" or tiny bit of critique if I really spot something, because it's not really my thing.

This has been going on for quite a while and are there any new artists here who are not Pascal programmers? Trying to be Pascal + everything else is just not attractive to neither.
Specialization is quite ok, other forums for specific packages seem to get around the same amount of traffic that PGD has.
The focus should be on what the community really is and the forums should look like someone new could actually get a competent answer or a discussion, if I was an artist I?¢_Td not be too interested in triggering a few generic good job posts from programmers.
Does anyone else except K4Z and cairnswm like this direction?

I didn't mean specialize to a package, but to pascal programming or something specific within that. It's hard for me do determine value if I can't tie down exactly what the benefits are to being here.


K4Z, I'm not trying to degrade the value of art or music, not in the slightest. What I'm trying to say is more along the lines of that the majority here are programmers, so we ought to focus on that. Mainly because I doubt we'll encounter any more artists who don't program in pascal (after all, why would they hit PGD unless they did?). Art and music are quite valuable, but even with artists/musicians around it's hard to get. (I have a few years of experience with this prior to attempting game design in pascal)


I'm not trying to come across that I don't appreciate the effort being put into this site, because I most certainly do. It's just that I have little desire, skill or need that is outside the realm of programming, seeing that it is my best trait thus far. So adding other stuff doesn't really affect my "experience" here, but perhaps attracts new faces or perhaps some willing to help out.

My final thought is that from reading these posts, it seems that the objectors expect staff to justify why we should retain the current format, without actually providing any concrete justification why it should change.

No, I expect staff to justify the CHANGES. Currently I'm pretty much fine with it all, but Will stated he was going to be trying to attract more artists/musicians and that will dictate changes. I want those changes to be well justified. Technically I'm not requesting changes, or I'd have filed formally, but just stating my opinion in the debate.

[marmin]

hmm..
gamedev.net art or music forums are really not very active either..
and of course pure pascal language questions, the forum would be desolated in a few weeks (look at the Free Pascal forums).
..

I encourage the need for more subjects, actually.

If you don't like a subject, don't read it !

And what is it that programmers can't do art or music, and vice versa. Art and music is evenly important than programming. For me, making a game is a means to present art and music. Programming is the boring part.

The more subjects the better- but keep it clear ..

[Robert Kosek]

And what is it that programmers can't do art or music, and vice versa. Art and music is evenly important than programming. For me, making a game is a means to present art and music.

I don't play games to see art, hear music or anything like that ... I play for strategy, for a challenge. Artwork and good music are just bonus content I can do without for the most part.

Programming is the boring part.

Perhaps, but every bit as important as artwork and music. If not moreso (ASCII RPGs are still around after all).


I won't pretend to know what's best for the site, it's neither my job nor my knowledge. The end decision is up to the staff, of course, but it's just my opinion.

[marmin]

well, that's your personal opinion. Mine is that art and music is equal, sometimes even more important. But, that is another subject. :roll:

[LP]

What I was initially trying to say that on PGD we have a problem, which is basically lack of discussions lately. Can't you recall times where there have been no messages for some time? Isn't that enough to be used as justification?

Since every problem has a solution, I was trying to present one (which was reducing junk and increasing relevancy). However, I'm still surprised about lack of objectivity when it comes to discussing PGD's developments.

My only concern was to make PGD better and more crowded with discussions and the fact that I don't agree with WILL, K4Z and other PGD Staff or related people doesn't mean I don't appreciate efforts here on PGD. However, I wasn't quite fond of PGD either when it entered a "dark age", where there was only one discussion in few days, not to mention that latest change didn't attract any more users, but in fact filled PGD with even more "junk".

I was challanged that "Knowing Microsoft Office" is assumed. Then why can't you assume "Knowing Artwork" too? I mean, either way it's bull$hit and that was my point. You can't assume anything and you can't have everything either.

Most people post their opinions about whether they like the changes or not, but I haven't seen many opinions about attracting more visitors/members to PGD.

My own suggestion about attracting more visitors was to increase the relevancy of the topic and decrease the unnecessary bulk. Did anyone bother to read my example about an "3D in OpenGL" book? Or you just want to post the same "defensive" opinion again and again?

[LP]

Also, I made an interesting test. I asked many people I have contact with this: "What do you understand by a title, Pascal Game Development?"

Most people answered with exactly the same answer: "Developing games in Pascal". Nobody ever mentioned "music tracking" or "game design".

Question: how do you expect music trackers to join PGD, when the revelancy is so low?

[K4Z]

:clap: Well, AthenaOfDelphi hit the point exactly. :clap:


I have hung out in seperate Pascal and seperate Art forums before, trying to coordinate a team for a project, and it is virtually impossible to work. Not everyone checks emails or message boards everyday (or even once a week). And it oftens takes multiple posting on multiple boards to get a single reply. And having a project spead out over different forums also increases redundant replys from each community, as they are only getting a part of the project discussion in there forum.
Ofcourse, there is a small handfull of people that get lucky, and this works for them.

All I can say is that after finding PGD, I no longer have to search around so many different forums. In my opinion PGD is somewhat working succesfully while most others have failed. I'd hate to this this community revert to another dead pascal/delphi programming forum.

What I was initially trying to say that on PGD we have a problem, which is basically lack of discussions lately. Can't you recall times where there have been no messages for some time? Isn't that enough to be used as justification?
Since every problem has a solution, I was trying to present one (which was reducing junk and increasing relevancy).

Wouldn't increasing the number of members through Artists, Musicians, etc, help increase discussions?
'Relevancy' is objectionable, it is impossible to have any medium 100% relevent, to 100% of the people.

Did anyone bother to read my example about an "3D in OpenGL" book?

Isn't that a prime example on relevancy? People probably dismissed it because they didn't think it was relevant to them. That isn't to say a 3D in OpenGL book is irrelevent to everyone.

...Most people answered with exactly the same answer: "Developing games in Pascal". Nobody ever mentioned "music tracking" or "game design"....

I too asked some people what they thought of the title Pascal Game Development, and no one exactly mentioned Programming. Though some did talk about Game Design.

Question: how do you expect music trackers to join PGD, when the revelancy is so low?

Thats why WILL's been in the Music thread asking for Music Trackers, and asking questions about tracking itself, trying to build relevancy.

I really don't see how having Artists, Musicians, etc will in anyway hinder discussion about programming. If your not interested in art just ignore it, because there's a lot of people in here that do care .
Even though only 5% of the news that gets posted on the front page is relevent to me, doesn't mean that it's not important to anyone. :think: