The Climate Challenge

[Robert Kosek]

Only your first diagram is accurate, being based upon measured data. And I'm not talking about projections, guesses, and predictions from "this much x is in y". You cannot guarantee the rate nor amount of anything without being there to measure it.

Where you there? Were any of us there?

As for glaciers melting quickly, how did you measure that? Did they form slowly, quickly, chaotically? I'd like to see you prove it. For all we know, it might be perfectly normal.

Nothing but recorded evidence is factual, those charts are all guesswork that fall apart at the drop of a pin.

I am not arrogant enough to tell God when he created the world or time itself. Until he sees fit to "whisper the answer in my ear" I will continue to estimate to the best of my ability, without the usage of circular reasoning that modern science is so chock full of. So much for "objective research".

[cragwolf]

Using ice cores is inaccurate. 1: You assume the rate of build up was constant. 2: You assume melting and refreezing was constant. 3: We are unable to witness the entire period that the layers formed within, so we cannot judge the amount of time, temperature, or "kind" of climate involved.

I'll say this as politely as I can. From what you've written, it appears that you have little to no knowledge of ice-core science. None of your points are critically relevant to the process of dating ice cores and extracting temperature, CO2 concentration, and other data from them. Revealingly and amusingly, you miss the number one criticism, or the most challenging problem, of ice-core science: contamination. This occurs either from the drilling process or by natural processes (e.g. summer melting, ice flow, underground melting). I'll refrain here from addressing your bizarre Grand Canyon rant.

It's good to be skeptical, but if you base your skepticism on anything other than a thorough and honest study of current scientific knowledge, then you are only contributing to the mass ignorance that causes or exacerbates most of the world's problems. It is a disappointing feature of human psychology that the more ignorant you are about a subject, the more sure you are about your position on that subject. The most uncertain people I have known are scientists, who are reticent and tentative on forming opinions and conclusions in their fields of specialisation. At the other end of the spectrum are politicians, writers, religious people and the common ignorant boob with an internet connection.

[Robert Kosek]

What tires me most is the arrogant scientist who claims that he holds all the cards, when his hypothesis won't even hold water. Darwinism is taught today without question as science, when it was written by a drop out theologian with no scientific background. His entire work behind the concept of evolution was based off the idea that varietals are separate species, when a species clearly includes all varietals capable of interbreeding and producing viable offspring.

Tell me how the lost squadron was found beneath some 250 feet of ice for the first bomber?

‘The Lost Squadron’ Life magazine 15(14):60–68, December 1992 and ‘Search for a Fork-Tailed Devil’ Compressed Air Magazine, pp. 30–36, March 1996.

How the flag, tent and sledge left at the South Pole by Antarctic explorer Amundsen in 1911 now being 40 feet under the ice?

Salt Lake Tribune, March 19, 1995 p. A12.

Or this summary of New Scientist, 139(1809):15, September 11, 1993.

In the frozen wastes of Siberia, an amazing salamander is able to survive in suspended animation for years, deep-frozen at temperatures as low as –50 oC, only to thaw out and run off afterwards. Scientists are not yet sure of the exact mechanism, but, like some other animals, they almost certainly produce ‘anti-freeze’ chemicals to replace water in their tissues and cells.

Some have been found buried in ice which is believed to be from the Pleistocene Age — 12,000 years ago by evolutionary reckoning. Yet they still recovered when thawed out! Though researchers have discussed the idea of radiocarbon dating to test the idea that they could possibly be that old, they say that the creatures ‘probably fell to this depth much later, through deep cracks in the permafrost’.

Whether so or not, the belief that ice layers only 14 metres (46 feet) down are many thousands of years old, in light of the ‘Lost Squadron’ experience, cannot be taken for granted.

I merely quote others in the scientific community, and out of deference to you and this community both I will say no more. Get off your hobby horse, soap box, and take off your 'genius' hat for just five seconds. Perhaps you need to take a deep breath and remember that all the wiles of scientific marvel are nothing when it comes to simple logic; you cannot accurately prove the exact age of the ice without traveling back in time to check your date. You may only guess, which may be educated or not. Regarding your rather offensive remarks towards the nature of my intelligence, beware where you are standing lest you trip and take a hard fall. I have yet to see any concrete proof of any sort, nor flawlessly accurate model of the earth present and past irrespective of age.

Nice to see an opinion taken as such, and shot down like a nuclear missile. Always good to see the boorish are still about.

[cronodragon]

I remember weeks ago I read an article in the newspaper about a scientist that came to my country to talk about the Global Climate Change, and that we could do little about it. I also watched a TV program, I think in National Geographic, talking about how the melting of the poles could stop the climatic mechanism in the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans that would take us to a mini-ice age (just 1000 years or so). I was sad to me when they said that central america would become a desert... now we have a beautiful rain forest here, and is incredible to image this place becoming a desert :? Looking around, I found this model:


http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki...Change_Gallery

It seems that we will get about 8 more celcius degrees, and the worst of all is that this graphic seems to be right for us. Looking at pictures from 50 years ago, people use suits and long dresses, and people said the capital was cold. Indeed, in the 70's and 80's I remember the capital was pretty cold, then in the 90's it got warmer and warmer. We even had a terrible year here, with several crimes related to high temperatures. By the middle of the 90's I had to travel to another province to study at the university, which had a long reputation of being a cold and foggy place... not anymore. I saw myself how the climate of the province changed drastically around 1996 to 1998, and became a sunny and hot place which it still is. This country is very small, and this province receives the air directly from the Atlantic, so I think it's climate should be directly releated to changes in the sea.

[Chesso]

Well her In Australia (Sydney, NSW) it's definitely gotten hotter on average than it once was.

The only place I have been that was anywhere near as hot as it is now and has been for the last few years running is up in Brisbane QLD, which is much nearer to the equator (it's about 7 hours train ride and couple hours bus).

[cragwolf]

Robert, at least you should reference or provide a link to the creationist web page from which you copied these quotes and mined these stories. That would be a common Christian courtesy, don't you think?

[Chesso]

Does it really matter (is he christian? lol).

I never knew they had laws in the bible about using information from another source without saying where it came from .

[cragwolf]

Well it wouldn't be the first time someone expropriated a common courtesy for the cause of Christian morality. :twisted:

[Chesso]

lol.

[cragwolf]

As I recover from this damned cold, I thought I might address the claims from the creationism web page (or its associated magazine) surreptitiously used by Robert. In fact, my job has been made easy because it has mostly been done by someone else:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD410.html

As for the Siberian salamanders, someone needs to learn about the difference between permafrost and ice sheets.