A Big Debate

[Sander]

Since I'm a big fan of discussions and debates in general, because you can learn a lot and it is somehow quite a lot of fun, I thought I'd start a "big" debate here. If the MODs feel that it is somehow inappropriate or not wanted, I won't continue on with it, but I thought I could give it a try.

Well, since this is a game development forum, with loads of computer people who undoubtedly like The Matrix and The Matrix: Reloaded(Which, by the way, kicked some major *ss!!), I think I'll start with the Matrix.

Is the Matrix possible? And if it is possible, would it be a BAD thing to live in the matrix

Well, I do seriously believe that the Matrix would be possible, and that there is a possibility that we are actually in such a thing ourselves right now. It could be possible that all we are experiencing right now, is merely an illusion created by our brain. The very nice "dream" theory is just such a thing, how can you know that you are not currently in a dream(or in this case, a matrix), if the dream(or the matrix) is as vivid as real life?

And I doubt it would be bad to live in the matrix, as long as you were unaware of the free life outside of the matrix, for you, it would be a good life. Since you would know no difference with another world, you could lead a good life, and it would be as if it was a true life. Since you are experiencing it all as a normal life, there would be, for you, no difference with normal life, and thus, your life wouldn't be worse(and it might even be better) than outside the matrix.

Right, anyone??

[Karaman]

Hmm, the matrix is too simple for me to be true

[iLLUNis]

If i am in the Matrix i demand to become a bilionnaire RIGHT now... :twisted:

[Ultra]

I recently read about a philosopher that said that we probably lives in a computer. His main arguments (even though I might be wrong in this, it was some time I read the article) was that with the rate computers speed increases we'll soon be able to create true AI. After we accomplish this it won't take long before we are able to create a whole mini-universe. As time progresses we'll be able to create more and more of these mini-universes with computer people living in them. After we have created all these universes and proved that it's possible it's likely that we ourselves live in such a universe.

Personally I felt it was a bit farfetched but another interesting point of view that was presented in the article is that it's pretty strange that math can explain our entire universe. Like math can explain everything in a computer.

Anyway just thought I'd let you know that there are professionals that are discussing this question right now. I however feel that it's easier to believe that the entire world is a fantasy in my brain rather than a part of the matrix.

[cairnswm]

Is it not possible that I'm the only real person and everyone else is there to allow me to run my life?

Is it not possible that the only things that actually happen in the universe are those that I see because nothing else exists until I can see it and everything ceases to exist the moment I cant see it?

If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it does it still make a noise?

If a man says something and there is no woman to hear it is he still automatically wrong?

[Sander]

Yeah, that's the way

Alrightie then, to all your questions, yes! That's a very interesting philosophy path, is everything I am seeing real? Does it exist? Does anything happen or exist when I am not there to see it? Would something happen if NO-ONE would be there to see it?

How about this then:
Is everything you do predetermined? I think it is, I think that you are what you are because of your history and the entire history of the universe before you. I belueve that your history determines what you will do, and that what you will do is thus predetermined, because you are YOU, YOU wouldn't do it in another way. But I don't want to call it fate, since it is still your choice, your choice may be influenced and made up beforehand because of what you are, but since YOU are stil making the choice, even though you couldn't make it in another way, it isn't fate, or destiny, it is just pure sense.


But, if that is so, could you still really call it a choice?

[Ultra]

Finally the philosophy class I'm taking is paying off.

I even know the answer to the tree-falls question, but I don't know if I should tell you and ruin the mystery...

How about this then:
Is everything you do predetermined? I think it is, I think that you are what you are because of your history and the entire history of the universe before you. I belueve that your history determines what you will do, and that what you will do is thus predetermined, because you are YOU, YOU wouldn't do it in another way. But I don't want to call it fate, since it is still your choice, your choice may be influenced and made up beforehand because of what you are, but since YOU are stil making the choice, even though you couldn't make it in another way, it isn't fate, or destiny, it is just pure sense.

Let's make a little hypothetical example. You are on the TV-show "earn lot's of money". You see two boxes. One is transparent and you can see that there is $1000 in there, there's no way to see what's in the other. Now they let you know that either there is $1000000 in there or nothing. Your choice is to take either both boxes, and thus ensure the $1000, or only take the one that may or may not have $1000000.

Now you can either get nothing or $1000 or $1000000 or $1001000. Then you hear that a person who can predict the future has predicted what you will choose. This person's predictions are always true. If this person predicted that you will only take the box that may or may not hold $1000000 the show have put the money in there, but if it's been predicted that you will take both it's empty.

To spice it up you can let a close relative (or any other person you trust) look if there is something in there. (Let's also assume that they always tell the truth about what's in there.) Now what will your choice be?

Let's say that you hear that the money is in the box, isn't the best thing to choose both boxes since then you will get $1001000 instead of $1000000?
Let's say that you hear that there is no money in there, isn't the best choice to take both boxes since then you will at least get $1000?

It might be good to note that there is no magical way that they can remove or put money in the box, either the money is there or it isn't (and of course you know since your relative told you).

A problem that can make you go mad.

Have we a free will? Definitely a harder question than "if a tree falls and no one can hear it, does it make a sound".

[Useless Hacker]

Well, if this world is 'virtual', I would be interested in obtaining their code, since it kicks the arse of Doom3 et al.

[Sander]

Ack, who needs philosophy classes

Well, I don't really see the problem, but I may be missing something. Isn't it relatively obvious that you should always choose both? There is no way to loose then, because you will always have the amount available, no matter WHAT is in there. The game would be more interesting if the non-transparent box could also have a -$1000 in it. Making it a very hard choice indeed.

But what about those predictions? Say that there is indeed the possibility of the -$1000 in one of the boxes. What if the prediction guy, told you, that you would choose both, and that you would then have nothing. Would you choose both? And if not, would you still have chosen one box if the prediction guy HADN'T told you? Maybe, the prediction guy MADE you choose one box, and therefore made you win that $1000 instead of nothing. If that is true, did he know that and did he do you a favor? Hmm, now that is something to think about.


As for the tree thingie, isn't it so that the tree did NOT fall, since there is nothing and absolutely nothing to fall for. BUT when you get there, it is lying on the ground without really having fallen, since noone could have noticed it?
Isn't the world the world how YOU percieve it, and is the world the same for everyone else? Do you perceive the world differently from others. And do your perceptions change or even make the world to what it is? Would this then result in the tree not falling, because noone was there to "make" it fall by percieving it, and would anyone coming after the falling the tree actually perceive that the tree had fallen, or is it just lying on the ground without having fallen over

Hmm, philosophical debates can get very sticky indeed....

[Crisp_N_Dry]

Okay, what about time travel. Let's say that we found a way to travel through time. Would we have to limit our time travelling to certain times(or with special calculations depending on how far we wanted to jump) of the year in order for us to land safely on earth. Let me explain, the earth is rotating around the sun, so, if we jump to next week then we will be in the same point in space as we were at the time we jumped but earth would be a week ahead in it's orbit so we will be shot out into space. And, what if the whole solar system and all of the other objects in space have a velocity in whatever direction(as in, they are all moving across space at the same rate), then when we jump to next week, not only will earth be a week ahead but it will also have shifted slightly across. So if we jumped any major length of time then our solar system could be millions of miles away depending on the velocity of all objects in space and the distance we travel through time. There would be no way of knowing whether our solar system and everything else in space is moving because they are all moving at the same or similar rates and any difference in speeds would be unnoticable because we have not been studying the stars for that long(in space terms 500 years would be nothing). Anyone care to share their thoughts on such meanderings or am I alone in my fascination?