Shooting of innocent Brazilian in UK...

[WILL]

Thank-you Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair for reducing terrorism and ensuring that everyone's way of life has not changed. Well done!

Well this is hardly a fair statement. Mr. Bush doesn't run England. Are you saying that one should not do the right thing because someone else might do something bad?

Of course it's easy to blame them. Propaganda director, Michael Moore does it with great easy. But he also has no problem with mixing facts with his own diluted (and ill researched) oppinions. Consider he edits everything to only match his personal feelings filtering out those nasty facts that might not go along with his story[size=9px](he probably is so stubborn in his own oppinion to accept them anyways)[/size] add emotional music and completely random video clips to change and manipulate your emotional state into bleaving whatever he wants to tell you. Talk about sensationalizim at it's best.

Don't believe me? Watch FeirnHYPE 9/11 and you'll see the very same people on his video complaining how they were protrayed in his videos. Knowlage before emotion people...

Which bring me back to my point. Consider the media an how they do business. It's all about ratings. The more exciting the more people watch. The news stations know this so what do they do? They tell the story however it can be more exciting. Who cares what light they shed the story in right? Who cares what really happened right? It's all about the ratings. The media is not responsable in this respect, it's how the business has grown. And how you usually get your information unfortunately.

So take it with a grain of salt and be mindfull of what is expressed. Telling a story in a completely balanced way is near impossible. And you rarely get your news in this way. It's often always in the view of the reporter(or whoever writes what they say) so it's wise to consider this before jumpping on the 'band wagon'.

[Sly]

As an example of the power of religion, take the eviction of Israelis from land that is being given back to Palestine. One of residents who is being evicted said that "God says this land should not be given to them". That's the kind of blind stupidity that drives these people.

[JSoftware]

As an example of the power of religion, take the eviction of Israelis from land that is being given back to Palestine. One of residents who is being evicted said that "God says this land should not be given to them". That's the kind of blind stupidity that drives these people.

"GOD GAVE US THIS LAND!" :?

[Robert Kosek]

Well, you're perhaps the first Canadian I know of that agrees with my viewpoint Will. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

This is why I don't enjoy political and religious debates on forums, as it tends to fragment the community. Certainly the discussions can be interesting, and even eye opening now and then, but it has a nasty habit of ruining the forum the remainder of the time.

Personally I doubt there will ever be "peace" in the Middle East. I don't think that after a millenium it would be much different between Jews and Palestinians. I don't think it'll be much different in regard to Jihadists either.

And that's about as far as I'll go into this debate...

[Traveler]

This is why I don't enjoy political and religious debates on forums, as it tends to fragment the community. Certainly the discussions can be interesting, and even eye opening now and then, but it has a nasty habit of ruining the forum the remainder of the time.

I completely agree with this.
If I had the choice I'd close this thread here and now.

[savage]

Before I start let just say that I am not religious at all and neither do I follow one political ideology. I simply do and think about what is right and what is wrong.

The prime motivation behind these bomb attacks is religion.

I disagree. This is the argument put forward by the media and is incorrect. And it is also the reason given for "not being able to negotiate with these people". Because as we all know arguing over faith is nearly always a no win situation. The reality is that religion is used as a recruitment tool, to back political motives. This has been the case always.

The reasons that the terrorists began this campaign has been stated by Bin Laden himself and more recently by someone who claims to be Bin Laden's deputy ( Ayman al-Zawahri ) . Both men have said the same thing....

• * Withdraw from our land
  * Stop stealing our oil and wealth
  * Stop supporting corrupt rulers ( they are talking about Israel here ).

Why do the media or politicians never dwell on these points. Last time I checked, the US in particular, violates the very things that Bin Laden etc are complaining about.

So I agree WILL that the media is just there to sell the viewpoint of their owners who have close affiliations with certain political groups.. If the owners want public opinion to go one way, well then that is what comes out of the mouths of the reporters.

The points mentioned above are what should be used to begin negotiations. I am not saying give in, I am saying negotiate.
But every politician says "Terrorists cannot be negotiated with". This is total rubbish, throughout history in the end, after many lives have been lost, governments always, and I mean always, negotiate. Ireland, South Africa, India ( Ghandi was considered a terrorist in his day ) to name a few, google for a few more and you will see that they do.

All I am saying is instead of waiting 20 years to negotiate, lets skip all the killing of innocents and start negotiating NOW, before more blood is spilled!

Whether real or not, people in the Middle East have a perception of INJUSTICE, mainly due to double standards. For example, why is Israel allowed to have an illegal nuclear program, but Iran is not? Why doesn't the US hassle them about developing nuclear capabilities. Don't give me the self defence argument, because in that case very country in the world should have nukes to defend themselves with, not just a select few.

Since they ( the middle east ) feel that injustices are being commited, and there does not seem a peaceful way to resolve the injustice, they choose violence. The clerics use this perceived injustices to recruit the suicide bombers. Address the injustice in some way, so that people see that something is being done. This will reduce their feelings of helplessness.

They believe that killing themselves for their religion is a higher honour than living. How do you plan to "fix" that?

As I mentioned earlier, religion is a recruiitment tool. You need to remove their perception of injustices, and replace that with a sense of justice. With a sense of justice, people will be less likely to be drawn into the religious fervour. That is how you "fix" it.

Religion is a powerful motive that has been used for many centuries as justification for killing by almost every religion.

I totally agree, also one of the reasons why I refuse to follow any religion what so ever.

And my earliar quote address this...

Give someone a reason to live and they will choose life. Remove any reason for living, then who knows how they will choose to die.

Well this is hardly a fair statement. Mr. Bush doesn't run England. Are you saying that one should not do the right thing because someone else might do something bad?

I think it is a very fair statement. I and 2 million other people in the UK marched against the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. Millions of others protested around the world, but to no avail. We all stated it would become a quagmire and that it was the wrong thing to do, but Bush and Blair, with what ever motives ( and I don't mean the WMD ones ) they had, decided to go ahead. I can hardly blame myself, as I marched/protested for what I believed was right. If the UK had not gone to Iraq and supported the US, which was the wrong thing to do to begin with, the likelihood of bombs going off in London would be zilch.

PS. I hope no one thinks I am attacking them personally, I respect everyone on this forum, even though I may not agree with things that are said. For me, things said in this thread remain in this thread and will not change my conversations with you via chat, email or other forums posts.

[savage]

I completely agree with this.
If I had the choice I'd close this thread here and now.

I'm sorry to hear that Traveler. I think discourse it an important tool in exchanging ideas. I have changed many of my ideals, which I thought were right based on these kinds of discussions. And I believe that I am a better person for the exchange. I don't expect people to agree with me, only to reflect on what I have said. Some people may end up seeing my perspective, others will see flaws in it and say I am talking rubbish. They are entitled to their opinion. Occasionally there will be an exchange of ideas and both parties will grow from it, just as I have done in the past and hope to do so in the future.

Every dicussion I have, writes a new page in my book of life. Corny as it sounds it's true.

[cairnswm]

@Savage

I agree

Nice to know someone else in the world thinks the way I do.

I live in a country that thanks to negotiations is growing, prospering and is probably the most racially progressive country in the world, and ony 10-15 years ago we were stagnating, and probably the most racist country in the world. Negotiations are worth it.

However - everyone likes to believe their way is best - (I could quote most of your last post here) - and therefore others should think the same way. Wether you say everyone is equal (but my wife must look after the kids) or you say White people are 'better' than people of other races - everyone believes they are right, and do not want to accept what other people believe as just as right (to them).

(Hope that made sense - I'm in a hurry).

I believe everyone that grew up int he 'old' South africa MUST be racist purely because of indoctrination - what matters is how we rise above it and cross that line.

But just because I believe that doesn;t mean every one else must - I have a number of friends that believe in the 'purity' of their culture (They are decended from English, Welsh, German, French with a little dutch as well). But because I dont give a damn about my own culture doesn;t mean I should expect them to not care about their own culture.

Whether real or not, people in the Middle East have a perception of INJUSTICE, mainly due to double standards.

It is real - to them.

PS. The words I hate most in the English language are Us and Them - as soon as you can put someone in a box (category) you can descriminate against them.

[Traveler]

I'm sorry to hear that Traveler. I think discourse it an important tool in exchanging ideas. I have changed many of my ideals, which I thought were right based on these kinds of discussions. And I believe that I am a better person for the exchange. I don't expect people to agree with me, only to reflect on what I have said. Some people may end up seeing my perspective, others will see flaws in it and say I am talking rubbish. They are entitled to their opinion. Occasionally there will be an exchange of ideas and both parties will grow from it, just as I have done in the past and hope to do so in the future.

Every dicussion I have, writes a new page in my book of life. Corny as it sounds it's true.

It is not that I don't want to encourage people to start discussions (just to opposit in fact), its just that I believe the topic is going into a wrong direction. IMO PGD is not a place to have political or religious debates.
(Especially in a time like this where posts are again dropped to an absolute minimum)