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Thread: About the goal of this engine

  1. #11
    PGDCE Developer Carver413's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relfos View Post
    Errr... but the engine is open source? This engine is just the continuation of my old LEAF engine, that was always open source. I changed the name to TERRA, ported it to iOS, and closed sourced it two or three years ago and tried to sell it as comercial product yes, but since no one was interested I open sourced it again after some time and announced it on the mailing list. And I'm pretty sure most of you are registered on the newsletter, as I have like 500 pascal developers registered, maybe you missed the announcement? Still no one contacted me with interested in using the engine, so I did not make a public rep for it, but I did make continous releases of production code each few months. Still had mostly zero downloads, so I thought no one wanted to make games in Pascal and forget about the site and never updated it, it is quite outdated now, but the engine continued being developed. If people really were interested I would put it on github or something. And note, I'm not talking only about my engine, if you check the lazarus wiki you will see a list of other pascal open source engines. I talk about mine because mine is the one with more features (if this is not true please correct me). As as I far I know ZenGL has a big number of users, altought it is just 2D, and there other 3d pascal engines that maybe could also be used as base if people really don't want mine for some reason. So why not just work with one of those open source engines? As I said, making a engine as complete as mine took almost a decade, and at least two of those years I worked full time on it, so why spend so much time rewriting the same again?
    I remember your anouncement on the pgd years ago and if I'm not mistaken I said I would be interested if it was opensourced but then it seemed that you choose a different route so I never really followed it after that. I think it would be a good Idea to put it up on github and let people have a chance to play around with it. you never know, it might be enough to sway the minds of a few and from there things could take a different turn. I myself am not sold on the community engine it is one thing to talk the talk but quite another to do the walk. As for myself I am working on a procedural design mostly and tools that I believe would be useful it any engine. if the community engine is successful then I would probably wrap my works around theres or some other engine like yours maybe.

  2. #12
    PGD Community Manager AthenaOfDelphi's Avatar
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    The fact is, everyone has different desires and aims. Relfos, I looked at your engine and I was put off by the commercial aspect and the lack of available documentation. The lack of documentation has put me off a lot of the projects.

    On the help front, like Mirage said, I've seen requests for help from peeps on here. Requests to help with a project that they've been working on for X months and it's like no, I don't want to jump in when you're that far along. The learning curve is pretty steep, I want to get in on the ground floor and learn on the way up

    I've already learned some stuff and all I've done thus far is write up some design documents. Picking peoples brains about their designs has been enlightening. I'm starting to read around some of the stuff relating to 3D maths and such and I'm loving it.

    I'm looking at this as an opportunity to learn. It's been said that this should have happened ages ago and it should have, but the fact is no one has organised it until now. I've taken those first steps because I've got games I want to write but I need to learn some stuff first. This project will give me that chance (and anyone else who wants to join in), and well... to the best of my knowledge it's the first time this community has worked together on anything like this.

    It may be ambitious, but I'm planning on having some fun with this. I hope we can surprise the doubters and produce something that really shows off this community and the talent that exists within it. If the enthusiasm that has been shown thus far continues, then I'm pretty confident we will produce the goods.
    :: AthenaOfDelphi :: My Blog :: My Software ::

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    There is a demand on high-quality cross platform engines. No matter what language was used and even what language a game should be written on.
    I disagree, the demand for traditional engines in 2014 is extremely small.
    It seems that you are not familiiar with the current indie scene, stuff like UDK/Unity is in a completly different level than a traditional engine, allows for way faster development with their integrated editors, keeps people away from low level stuff, and has way higher produtivity than doing a game in C++ or Pascal.
    A traditional engine in current times is a niche, a powerful pascal engine is a niche within a niche within a niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    This question was asked by many developers including myself.
    Seems that the answer is - no one interested to "help someone" with his engine/library.
    Seems the xkcd picture I posted is perfect for this situation/mindset then.
    For now let's ignore that I also have my own engine, let's think that I'm just a newbie pascal developer or something.
    But look here, this guy developed this Castle engine recently from what I've seen.
    He created a public repository, wrote lots of documentation and tools, made a forum, etc.
    Seems the setup is perfect for some guys to go in and transform this into a community project, does not matter that right now it only has one developer.
    Actually this kind of stuff works much better if it is started just from one guy who knows who to design stuff, rather than 5 or 6 guys who each have different ideas of a engine concept.

    I keep hearing people refering to the existing engines as hobbyist sole developer projects, and talking about the need for a powerful engine.
    This seems that an assumption is made that a project done by a single guy does not have enough quality for "serious" stuff.
    Yeti I did not even see a single mention of why current engines are not "powerful" enough, or that they lack feature X or Y.
    Even if a specific feature was lacking, it would be easier to implement it an existing engine (assuming the codebase is modular enough, which mine is, and I would guess that all others also are) than to write a new engine from scratch.

    Saying that no one is interested in "helping someone with his engine" is a bit sad.
    So why should other people be interested in helping this specific project if the people evolved are against helping in other existing projects and instead have intentions of reinventing wheels?

    It seems to me that you guys are implying that TERRA, Castle and others projects (which I did not search yet, more might exist) were made by incompetent developers, to the point that the codebase is so horrific that it is impossible to improved upon. I don't know the current state of GLScene, but heck, it would even be more produtive to port that one to current tech than to write a new one (if it is abandoned, I'm not sure, as I said I'm out of the lopo).
    www.pascalgameengine.com - Crossplatform 3D game engine

  4. #14
    Hi, AthenaOfDelphi, you replied at same time as me

    Quote Originally Posted by AthenaOfDelphi View Post
    The fact is, everyone has different desires and aims. Relfos, I looked at your engine and I was put off by the commercial aspect and the lack of available documentation. The lack of documentation has put me off a lot of the projects.
    My engine has been free/open source for almost two years now. And I already said in this topic, if there is no documentation for a project, why not ask the developer for documentation instead of reinventing the wheel?
    Btw, Castle has all documentation you need, and mine too, just not online, if anyone would ask I could send it by email.

    Quote Originally Posted by AthenaOfDelphi View Post
    I'm looking at this as an opportunity to learn. It's been said that this should have happened ages ago and it should have, but the fact is no one has organised it until now. I've taken those first steps because I've got games I want to write but I need to learn some stuff first. This project will give me that chance (and anyone else who wants to join in), and well... to the best of my knowledge it's the first time this community has worked together on anything like this.
    If you want to make games, please don't write engines. Otherwise you won't be making a game soon.
    I'm not sure what kind of games you want to make, but really, making a engine is not the right path.
    Make an engine only if you want to learn about this kind of stuff, otherwise pick up an existing solution.
    And if you want to learn, and if you don't know much about this kind of stuff yet, take into consideration that this would be years of learning, not months. Just modern graphics programming has enough material to keep you occupied for years, and a game engine is more than just graphics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AthenaOfDelphi View Post
    It may be ambitious, but I'm planning on having some fun with this. I hope we can surprise the doubters and produce something that really shows off this community and the talent that exists within it. If the enthusiasm that has been shown thus far continues, then I'm pretty confident we will produce the goods.
    I have no doubt that this project can be done, given enough time.
    But of course, it is time spent that could have been spent making games with existing solutions.
    Or contributing to an existing solution.

    Think, in 2015 you can either have:
    - An incomplete rudimentar engine, not suitable for serious projects
    - Or a game made with current solutions
    - Or existing solutions extended with advanced stuff, ready to make advanced stuff

    Btw, this link is a good read for anyone who is interested in making games
    http://scientificninja.com/blog/write-games-not-engines
    Last edited by Relfos; 04-07-2014 at 08:31 PM.
    www.pascalgameengine.com - Crossplatform 3D game engine

  5. #15
    PGD Staff code_glitch's Avatar
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    Relfos: On the XKCD picture its as I said before, not the people creating the universal 15th standard whoa re at fault. Its those involved the previous 14 standards who refuse to accept the new standard for whatever reason.

    Also, you mention a very small market - this is far from what everyone is seeing. There is an increasing demand for better engines to power web games, mobile games, desktop games and console games. And the indie scene is booming in all those markets. The demand is increasing - not the other way around. You also mention unity - this is, if I'm not mistaken, one of the target the PGDCE has in its cross-hairs. We can't have everyones engines rival it. So we'll make one that does things it cannot. The "move to unity/ue/engine_name_here" is great. But what if you want to write it in pascal? Its not like you *can't* its just inconvenient with current solutions (in the sense that there are better alternatives if you are okay to forego using pascal for some other language).

    Not only that, but the PGDCE is being designed in a highly modular nature. Why? Because there's more to code than just games. Game engines, are in my experience, a fantastic starting point if you're developing a new UI to fly an aircraft where you want to display things with not just guages, but better 3D UIs. Thats one instance I have actually tested out anyways. That article is great - and it does support your stance on this. BUT - here we have many developpers with different everything. The engine we're making is not some creation of some isolated programmer built around one use case. Its quite the opposite in fact. Put it this way: I read that article and decide to make a game with an already existing engine/system. Whats my best choice? Why the PGDCE. We're making that engine that everyone can develop games with - no matter the genre/type/platform. Its 'not just another engine'.

    Edit: Also relfos, might I point out that the PGDCE is (as it says on the tin) made by a community. It has people around the engine who are working together. That right there is something to not forget - there's a community around it and its ambitions. If it was not necessary, there would be no PGDCE as a result and as a result no PGDCE to argue about . The fact the PGDCE exists and we are having this debate is proof that it is in fact something people would like to see/need.
    Last edited by code_glitch; 04-07-2014 at 09:02 PM.
    I once tried to change the world. But they wouldn't give me the source code. Damned evil cunning.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by code_glitch View Post
    Also, you mention a very small market - this is far from what everyone is seeing. There is an increasing demand for better engines to power web games, mobile games, desktop games and console games. And the indie scene is booming in all those markets.
    You did not read my answer properly.
    I think I already said this, but for those that still don't understand, I am a professional in the game industry, with years of experience making engines in various languages. This pascal engine I've done is just one of my side projects, as is the Minimon game.
    I know perfectly the state of the industry, I have a huge number of contacts inside the indie game developers scene, I'm not limited just to the "pascal scene", actually I'm not really that active inside of it.
    Please read my message, of course the indie scene is huge now. However 99% of people are using Unity, and for a good reason.
    Traditional engines are obsolete now, except if you are talking AAA engines for big console games.

    Quote Originally Posted by code_glitch View Post
    Not only that, but the PGDCE is being designed in a highly modular nature. Why? Because there's more to code than just games. Game engines, are in my experience, a fantastic starting point if you're developing a new UI to fly an aircraft where you want to display things with not just guages, but better 3D UIs. Thats one instance I have actually tested out anyways. That article is great - and it does support your stance on this. BUT - here we have many developpers with different everything. The engine we're making is not some creation of some isolated programmer built around one use case. Its quite the opposite in fact. Put it this way: I read that article and decide to make a game with an already existing engine/system. Whats my best choice? Why the PGDCE. We're making that engine that everyone can develop games with - no matter the genre/type/platform. Its 'not just another engine'.
    Again I see unbased assumptions about quality of existing engines. My engine is not made for a specific game genre, or even specific for games, for example right now I've been developing a 3D modelling application with it for mobile phones, something very different from a game. I'm pretty sure all kind of stuff could be done with my engine without need to change anything at all in the engine core.

    Quote Originally Posted by code_glitch View Post
    Edit: Also relfos, might I point out that the PGDCE is (as it says on the tin) made by a community. It has people around the engine who are working together. That right there is something to not forget - there's a community around it and its ambitions. If it was not necessary, there would be no PGDCE as a result and as a result no PGDCE to argue about . The fact the PGDCE exists and we are having this debate is proof that it is in fact something people would like to see/need.
    This is what I don't understand, so you people really insist in being part of the original authors of a project?
    Because you can turn any open source project into a community, it does not matter that it was started by one guy or ten...
    If people were working in improving Castle or TERRA they would still be working *together*.

    It seems that the focus here is that people really want to have a project made especially by the people from the PGD community?
    If yes, just state it, and I would understand and stop being so negative about it.
    Because right now I only see this as it as separation of talent, instead of joining forces as people seem to want, we will have 3 or 4 teams implementing the same stuff separately in different engines.
    Last edited by Relfos; 04-07-2014 at 09:37 PM.
    www.pascalgameengine.com - Crossplatform 3D game engine

  7. #17
    PGD Community Manager AthenaOfDelphi's Avatar
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    This has the potential to become quite an emotive subject, so I'm going to bow out of the discussion and I would recommend everyone think long and hard before they post. I don't want a flame war or anything like that to ensue from what is a perfectly reasonable statement by Relfos.

    My closing statements on this debate though are these...

    I have my reasons for wanting to build an engine from the ground up with a collection of like minded individuals who also have their own reasons for getting involved in this endeavour. Personally, I want to learn the basics and then expand my knowledge to a sufficient level where I can feel comfortable using the product we create. But, I've been getting around to learning this stuff for years and thus far I have achieved the sum total of nothing.

    I want that to change.

    Diving into someone else's engine will not in my considered opinion give me the same kinds of opportunities to do this as this community project will.

    And so, I hear what you're saying but for me personally, the right choice is to work on a community project. For everyone else... I don't know the full details of why they are doing it, but I'm sure glad they are because I think we'll come out the other side better for the experience even if we don't achieve what we'd like to, but as the community manager I'm going to do my best to make sure that the worst case doesn't happen.

    The community was a little quiet, I floated the idea and well, I honestly didn't expect the response it received, which I do believe speaks volumes. Given this, it would be crazy of me to not then pursue the idea to it's logical conclusion, whatever that may be. None of us can know what will happen with this project, but as others have already said, we would welcome constructive criticism from people, particularly if they are as technically talented as you appear to be. Just don't try to dissuade us from having a go
    :: AthenaOfDelphi :: My Blog :: My Software ::

  8. #18
    Athena, indeed, there's no point of having flaming wars (well, not really a flamewar, but still, there's some conflict)
    What I understand now, the focus is let the PGD community work together in their own creation.
    That is a very different concept from just contributing to an open source project.

    I would say to go forward with this, it will be a great learning experience and would be interesting to see what comes out of it

    The only thing that really irks me is saying "no existing powerful pascal engines" or "no documentation" or "the only thing that exists is something simple done by single developers", "there is really anything like this and this really needs to be made", because not necessarly true.

    And it seems some people seemed to really be against I offering a non-free engine, but you have to understand this is not a simple engine, it is a very powerful and complex engine that took almost a decade to make, if anything I would use the money to buy more test devices, as you probably know, there is lots of fragmentation on mobile stuff.
    If you guys reach a point that you'lll start doing advanced things with mobile graphics like I did you'll understand that having lots of different hardware to test is essential. I invested at least 2000$ into this engine, not only in hardware, but also software, I recruited developers to write some advanced stuff like FBX or TTF font support, this is far from an hobbyist project. And still, in the end, I decided to make it full free to use, so it really makes me sad that barely no one is interested on it.

    Anyway, go forward with this and feel free to ask me any stuff you guys need
    www.pascalgameengine.com - Crossplatform 3D game engine

  9. #19
    PGD Staff code_glitch's Avatar
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    Edit: Just saw you'd replied before I posted this. By all means, ignore this if you find it irrelevant. Everyone seems to have found closure on this and I don't want to start another debate on this topic which we all seem to be happy with at last

    Relfos: I'm sorry if my intentions came across badly in that post - I wasn't trying to doubt your expertise and involvement in the industry. We're also not attacking your engine or your work - the PGDCE is, for many, a learning experience on making a more comprehensive engine in a team. Which allows the PGDCE to employ far more complex construction that what smaller fragmented teams could achieve on their own. Of course we aren't able to persuade the entire industry, but look at it this way:

    Pascal game development today:
    -ZenGL
    -TERRA
    -CASTLE
    -GLScene
    -nxPascal
    -Allegro
    and the list goes on.

    What if, a couple years from now, those developers see promise in the unification effort of the PGDCE and bring the defining features of their old engines to it as well as their expertise. The scene would then have far fewer fragmented options and duplication of effort - something you yourself pointed out as a problem - and in its place, fewer, far more advanced and better supported engines with one large community around it. That, I think, is one of the largest goals of the project: to get everyone behind one project that will, in time, be able to replace the many smaller efforts. And in the process - the developers who had to spend many hours maintaining their small engines on their own could spend that time making games with the PGDCE as the maintenance would be spread across all the developers from all the teams that joined.

    If people were working in improving Castle or TERRA they would still be working *together*.
    This is the age old argument everyone who maintains their own engine has had. Problem is - it was built by one person a specific way and everyone thinks different. The PGDCE is built by everyone so rather than say "my engine is best, help me work on it. I had all the control making and I built how I see its perfect" we say "our engine is best - help us work on it and have your say in its development" and everyone contributes to what is, in essence, their own engine in part and not someone else's. The PGDCE, thus, could largely be the TERRA engine's code under a new flag if it was offered and was agreed on by the developpers as a goof fit for the envisioned structure of the PGDCE. This would put the PGDCE light years ahead of its present state and would speed it up. As it stands, you rightly point out - it's your engine. We can't touch it. I think I speak for pretty much everyone in the project here - we would welcome any code drops to the project from previous projects to help make parts of the engine. All we need are people to offer that code to us for use.

    For the record, I don't mean to start a flame war - or war of any kind. I do however like a good debate, and the PGDCE is something I, along with many others, are starting to feel quite passionate about as a project that has a lot of potential that we would all like to see realized.
    Last edited by code_glitch; 04-07-2014 at 09:56 PM.
    I once tried to change the world. But they wouldn't give me the source code. Damned evil cunning.

  10. #20
    No problem code_glitch, I understand what you mean, and this was a good debate, now I understand much better the goal of this project (and other people that might read this will also be more informed).
    In that case I would say to not spend more time arguing with each other and to start working on this
    www.pascalgameengine.com - Crossplatform 3D game engine

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